Sponsored Magic - first time approaching it...

[jait]

So, I've got a player who's statting up a sponsored magic user...  I want to confirm my understanding...

The character does NOT have any unsponsored magics.  It's all from the source.   

Evocation
The character decides how much power to call.  Does he still take one mental stress for calling the power? 

Does conviction still act as a limiter to the amount of power that can be called (before taking mental stress?)  I'm assuming no, since he's not taking mental stress for calling the power from another power-source.

If these gloves are off, could a guy potentially choose to call 10-shifts of power, so long as the sponsor okays it? 

I presume that Discipline is still needed to control the power, though. Right?

Thaumaturgy
Given that this is at evocation-speeds, the sponsored caster doesn't have to waste any time. 

Does his Lore rank make any difference to the actual casting? 

Does Conviction matter in sponsored thaumaturgy?

I"m super-tired and not focusing, so I might just be missing all sorts of stuff.  I'd hate to tell this guy how to do things then recant later.

[blackstaff67]

His magic is exactly like anyone else's magic save for any bonuses/penalties that apply from his Sponsor.  Period.  If he calls up energy up to his Conviction, he takes on stress; and additional stress for each shift called above that, RAW.  And yes, Discipline is still needed to control the power.  Hope he has some Rotes.  Lore affects how many Rote Spells he can have, RAW.

That said, his Sponsor's magic should give him bonuses (Like Soulfire, Hellfire, etc.) when he does connect.   It might even give him Thaumaturgic magic and Evocation speed.  Whether or not he also accepts Lawbreaker karma is strictly up to you and your table, as I understand it.  'Nuff said from me.

[Haru]

So, I've got a player who's statting up a sponsored magic user...  I want to confirm my understanding...

The character does NOT have any unsponsored magics.  It's all from the source.   

Sponsored magic and regular magic work pretty much the same way, the main difference is in justifying why the character has magic, as well as a few additional benefits from the sponsor.

Evocation
The character decides how much power to call.  Does he still take one mental stress for calling the power? 

Does conviction still act as a limiter to the amount of power that can be called (before taking mental stress?)  I'm assuming no, since he's not taking mental stress for calling the power from another power-source.

If these gloves are off, could a guy potentially choose to call 10-shifts of power, so long as the sponsor okays it? 

He takes casting stress like any other magic user. 1 shift for each spell +1 shift for each shift of power above his conviction. Sponsored magic does not absolve you from this.
However, the character can ask his sponsor to absorb the stress for him, in exchange for increasing the debt towards the sponsor.

I presume that Discipline is still needed to control the power, though. Right?

Yes, it is. Again, you can ask your sponsor to help you, if you fail, or if you want to get more oomph out of a spell. Usually the exchange rate is +2 per point of sponsor debt, just like invoking an aspect (because that's effectively what you do).

Thaumaturgy
Given that this is at evocation-speeds, the sponsored caster doesn't have to waste any time. 

Does his Lore rank make any difference to the actual casting? 

Does Conviction matter in sponsored thaumaturgy?

Thaumaturgy at evocations speed and methods basically means, that your evocations become more versatile. You can, for example, cast skill replacement spells, which evocation usually can't, in the blink of an eye, that would usually take you at least a few minutes.
You determine the power and the casting stress with your conviction, and you draw up the power in one discipline roll, just like it were a regular evocation.

Lore is still used in sponsored thaumaturgy, if you want or need to cast a spell that's too complicated to do it in one roll. In that case, it is no longer "thaumaturgy at evocations speed and methods", but regular old thaumaturgy, lore determines the base complexity and everything. Your conviction matters here as much as it does in regular thaumaturgy, as it is the number of shifts of power per exchange you can safely gather, without taking casting stress.

I"m super-tired and not focusing, so I might just be missing all sorts of stuff.  I'd hate to tell this guy how to do things then recant later.

Hope this helps. Sleep is god, go worship.

[Tedronai]

Important Note (TM):  There is a distinct lack of consensus regarding the actual workings of 'Thaumaturgy with Evocation's speed and methods'.  Take all statements and advice regarding this subject as the poster's personal opinion only unless expressed as a direct quote from YS, preferably with page numbers to check for yourself.

For example: my personal interpretation of 'Evothaum', derived from the sidebar on page 288 of YS, places particular emphasis on certain phrases, including prominent ones such as "evocation's methods".  Essentially, all I allow Evothaum to accomplish is to add a non-standard 'element' to a character's available evocation effects.  That's it.  Everything still has to be phrased (mechanically) as an attack, block, maneuver, or counterspell, regardless of its narrative representation ('attack' with a summoned swarm of demon-wasps?  sounds nasty!).  I don't allow multiple aspects to be created with a single maneuver;  I don't allow durations not expressed in exchanges; I don't allow direct skill-replacement effects (note the 'direct'; invoke-for-effect is a powerful tool, but also one subject to additional case-by-case oversight);  etc..

[Sanctaphrax]

That's a very restrictive interpretation, but yeah. It's ambiguous.

And it's not just the field of effects that's unclear. Which foci and specializations you use is too.

[vultur]

I have to say that I can't get the "still just attack, block, maneuver or counterspell" interpretation from the text on Sponsored Magic "with evocation's speed and methods". It's ambiguous, but not THAT ambiguous IMO.

But it is definitely not clear...

...whether Lore limits your complexity/power...
...what focus items work with Evothaum...

etc.
EDIT: Specifically, this text

Thaumaturgy’s set of effects are broader-reaching, not constricted by the straight-line force principles of evocation. With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell.

means, as far as I can tell, that it really does give you thaumaturgic effects.

EDIT x2: I think "The spell is cast like evocation: power first, control later" and "In these cases, use what would
have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation" means you use Conviction and Lore is not involved. But that is, IMO, less certain than the above.

No real guidance on focus items....

[umdshaman]

Everything still has to be phrased (mechanically) as an attack, block, maneuver, or counterspell, regardless of its narrative representation ('attack' with a summoned swarm of demon-wasps?  sounds nasty!).  I don't allow multiple aspects to be created with a single maneuver;  I don't allow durations not expressed in exchanges; I don't allow direct skill-replacement effects (note the 'direct'; invoke-for-effect is a powerful tool, but also one subject to additional case-by-case oversight);  etc..

It's not THAT ambiguous (IMO). From the RAW "In these cases, use what would have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation." (Emphasis mine.)

I'll grant you there is a little wiggle room on if you use thaumaturgy or evocation's skills and focus items/specialties are not mentioned at all. As far as focus items/specialties go I'd have to say its probably not relevant since it doesn't come with specializations or focus items and it doesn't mention the Refinement power (or vice versa). But since "here's what it means" sounds an awful like "if and only if mentioned here", if you allow the Refinement power to work for Sponsored Magic and focus items aren't mentioned its either "they don't work on Evothaum" or "use the thaumaturgy ones".

[Tedronai]

The discussion has been had before.  I don't really feel like getting into it in detail, here, and derailing yet another thread.  I just thought that it was worth pointing out that there are different interpretations of that sidebar, and that definitive unqualified statements as to its meaning are probably not justified (unless they come from the dev who actually wrote it or somesuch).

[Blk4ce]

Here's another controversial question: Does evothaum gives a second set of rote spells or rotes at all?

(My opinion is yes, because they are tied in a different power. The first set is about evocation and the second about thaumaturgy.)

[Tedronai]

In my interpretation:
Sponsored Magic provides a set of rotes (which can be applied to Evothaum if that is also provided) unless the character also has Evocation (in which case that provides the Rotes, and the Sponsored Magic is just adding its available evocation effects to those available through Evocation).

[Taran]

That's my take as well.  You get 1 set of rotes based on your lore.  If you have a Sponsored Magic, you have more flexibility on what those rotes can be, as far as theme and effect are concerned.

You don't get Thaum rotes, in any case.  So having a sponsor lets you do Thaum-type spells as evocation rotes.

[vultur]

That's my take as well.  You get 1 set of rotes based on your lore.  If you have a Sponsored Magic, you have more flexibility on what those rotes can be, as far as theme and effect are concerned.

You don't get Thaum rotes, in any case.  So having a sponsor lets you do Thaum-type spells as evocation rotes.

I agree. Having evothaum doesn't give you twice as many rotes.

--

I think evothaum should use thaumaturgy specializations, thematically, but that doesn't really work mechanically, because even in Thaum you still use Conviction to draw power. But since there's no such thing as a Thaumaturgy Power specialization, it seems like that if you use thaum focus items and specializations, then you might have Biomancy Complexity +5 and Control +5... but you can still only draw power equal to your Conviction for 1 stress, so actually casting that Complexity +5 spell would cost you 6 stress!

[Blk4ce]

I think evothaum should use thaumaturgy specializations, thematically, but that doesn't really work mechanically, because even in Thaum you still use Conviction to draw power. But since there's no such thing as a Thaumaturgy Power specialization, it seems like that if you use thaum focus items and specializations, then you might have Biomancy Complexity +5 and Control +5... but you can still only draw power equal to your Conviction for 1 stress, so actually casting that Complexity +5 spell would cost you 6 stress!

My opinion is that thaum has its characteristics "translated" to evocation. Discipline stays the same, Lore takes the spot of conviction, complexity specialisation takes the role of power specialisation.

[Hick Jr]

I use Evothaum the same way you use Evocation: conviction for power, roll discipline to control the shifts. It uses the same foci as whatever element you're using it with, usually with a GM call on whether or not the effect is offensive or defensive.

[Taran]

The way I do it is the sponsor becomes another element for the caster to use in evocation.  So a full wizard with Soul-Fire might have: water, earth, air, soul-fire.

When you do your foci, you specify whether it is an evocation foci or thaum.

So thaum foci are not changed: Complexity/Power.  Soul-fire is a new Theme that can be used for foci.

Since Evothaum is speed and methods of evocation, I use Power and Control for foci, except "Soul-fire" is the specific element instead of Air or Earth or water.

So, I might have a +2 Soul-fire, defensive Control Foci.

I use it when casting evothaum Wards(blocks), for instance.  Or I can use it to cast a normal evocation block.  The difference between an evothaum ward and a regular block are fairly significant.

The soul-fire evothaum ward can only be cast on corridors/doors/thresholds and are immobile and lasts longer
The regular soul-fire evocation is 1 exchange and mobile.
Both use the same "evocation element".