Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes

[magnusth]

Without realising he was lying at the time, certainly.

And about my assertion that *Harry* has not been proven to be willing to kill himself because it was the shadow that manipulated him into it?

Uriel also states, iirc, that this happens very rarely.

I believe he also claims in the warrior that Harry does it far more often than most other people - probably at least every book. I haven't got my books with me, though. Someone check side jobs?

I would entirely disagree with that; seeing Uriel well manipulate a particular situation of extreme significance does not make the story as a whole lose conflict, it just illustrates that the conflict will have to be at a much more sophisticated and interesting level than Harry then thinks it is.

I can see this argument, but i'm not sure I quite agree. At least some of the conflict in the dresdenfiles comes from Harry's willingness to put himself in danger for others, and from his willingness to constantly make free-willed choices. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate higher levels of conflict, such as Harry's internal struggle with some measure of darkness, or the conflict of trying not to be manipulated. But in ghost storry, I think park of the conflict, at least, is "Will harry wear his soul/spirit/memories thin trying to protect his friends?," and i think that's a relevant conflict that looses weight if it's already been perfectly precalculated that he won't.

[Quantus]

Nothing prevents Lea from snatching up Amoracchius when it is undefended, in GP; she is not required to give any balancing response to Heaven.   I am positing this as a reasonable model for Mab's potential interaction with Uriel.

Well, one could say she took it up in payment for harry trying to break his word with her yet again.  He was able to make it vulnerable and she was able to take it because at that point it didnt belong to heave, it belonged to its wielder

But we're not talking about an oject that just happened to be lying on the ground, we're talkign about Mab's supposed ability to query Odin and/or Uriel about future events and plans, discuss possible outcomes, etc.  Your model would by its nature have to be entirely one-way, and even then I think she wouldnt be capable of accepting it without giving something of equal value back, in the same way that Lea could not accept a gift from Bianca.  Otherwise the other party would always be theoretically able to show up and say "remember when?  You own me and Im calling it in"

[vultur]

On the 'swiss army' bit, Harry has actually used Summer power once, in PG. Don't know if that's significant.

We know from Luccio in SmF that Maggie was a political radical within the White Council, and at odds with their power structure;  if she wanted allies elsewhere, the White Court seem to be the least monstrous available option.

I'd say Faerie (with which she is known to have had dealings) would have been a much less monstrous choice (especially Summer) -- maybe not a wise one for most people, but she presumably knew what she was doing around them. (Although she doesn't seem to have made a very good bargain with Lea... but there may be something else going on there - eg Mab messing with things to keep Harry from being too protected and thus not developing his potential)

Honestly I'm kind of surprised she didn't end up a Knight...

I would challenge this part, specifically (the bolded text).  For one thing the "did she lie" WOJ clearly (to me) sets Uriel on a higher (Cosmic) tier, one which she apparently does not grasp very well.  I think that the Mothers might on that tier and be aware enough for that sort of insight, but not the queens.

I agree. Uriel may very well perfectly understand Mab, but given that WoJ probably not vice versa.

[forumghost]

On the 'swiss army' bit, Harry has actually used Summer power once, in PG. Don't know if that's significant.

Pretty sure that Harry mentions something about how the fact he used Summer Fire in PG is why the Gruffs can track him by his fire magic in SF, so there should be some impact.

[huangjimmy108]

The "apparently against her wishes" there strikes me as rather clever.

Mab says she's cross with Uriel for sending Harry's soul walkabout.  She also says that had Harry not made it through that he'd have been lost and gone forever.  She puts those two sentences right next to each other and leaves Harry and us to infer a causal linkage.  However, the grammatical form "had Harry died as a wandering soul, he'd have been gone forever" (I paraphrase from memory) is the same as "had I a billion dollars free and clear of obligation, I know exactly which good causes would receive the first $800 million of it"; it can be (and in my case is) perfectly true without requiring me to actually have a billion dollars, or for it to be a remotely plausible eventuality that I might have any time soon.

I think "She cannot change who you are" makes sense because Mab and Uriel see the universe in very very different ways.  Mab cares about results.  Uriel cares about choices.  Mab's is an ethic of consequence, Uriel's one of free will.  I'm not seeing that the ways the Winter mantle may change Harry matter a bent penny to Mab except to the extent that they make Harry more likely to do what she asks of him without qualm.

We have the evidence of SmF that Mab can seriously change the range of options Harry is aware of, and in so doing, guide the choices he makes toward a desired end.  This does not seem to count as a violation of free will, at least at the scale at which Uriel cares about and is allowed/required to oppose such violations.  We know from BR (and I can never remember whether this is Harry having breakfast with Kincaid and Murphy, or the screen with Harry and Bob immediately before; it's the conversation about Renfields) that it is possible for humans to be enthralled with such a fine touch that they do not even notice.  Harry does not notice Mab messing with his memory in SmF; it takes Molly looking through his mind to find it, it takes Michael being suspicious that Harry has not lost Lasciel's shadow after all to motivate that search, and even when the mental block is found, Harry actively cannot resist or overcome it by will alone; that takes Michael's prayer, which looks to me like direct divine intervention.

The take-home message at the end of the day would appear to be: Mab can't change what Harry is in the sense Uriel cares about.  But apart from that, she has pretty much free rein to manipulate what he does, which is what she cares about. 

And what that achieves, that benefits all participants of Team UMO, is a Winter Knight who is willing to go along with being Winter Knight for the moment, rather than engaging in elaborate suicide attempts, because he is under the impression that Mab not being able to change who he is means he can meaningfully resist her wanting him to do something he finds objectionable.  Harry saying "I will go along with this for the moment and make trouble if i see a need for it" is much more productive than Harry saying "I'm not doing any of this under any circumstances because it makes me a monster", and I think we have plenty of evidence for Mab's ability to convince Harry to do what she wants in any specific case where that's important (as seen in SK and SmF.)

Complete agreement.

The "Mab cannot change who you are." might as well be translated into "You can still do all of winter's work and maintain the path of light at the same time."

Uriel only cares about the disposition of Harry's soul and free wil, while Mab only cares about getting the job done. It seem that Harry's beliefs that those two things are irreconcilable is somewhat in error.
 
Winter doesn't equal evil. Which is something that pre-CD Harry don't quite understand. He believes that becoming Mab's knight automatically make him a monster, because in Harry's mind Mab is a monster. Which is not nessasarily true. In a certain sense, Mab is the "Karren Murphy" of the supranatural world.

It reminds me about the scene in PG where Murphy mentioned how civilians viewed police work as brutal and uncivilize because they cannot see what is at stake. Mab and winter as a whole is somewhat like that.

In a sense, Mab have taken Murphy's role in the story.

[KurtinStGeorge]

I'm late to commenting on the OP, but I want to thank Neuro for laying out this thesis and its relevant details.  However, there are some questions that I have and a few comments I would like to make, but some of the comments are so minor I may just do them in a separate post. 

If I understand the OP correctly the proposed plan by Maggie and Lord Raith was to create a Startborn with the ability to oppose the Outsiders; and possibly unnamed others, for the benefit of all the major powers on Earth, be they mortal human wizards or vampires, and the supernatural powers of the Nevernever as well.  However, while Margaret LeFay and Lord Raith openly proposed this plan; possibly with the support of Justin DuMorne, the truly major supernatural powers; represented by Uriel, Odin and Mab, have been working in a covert fashion, and generally speaking their efforts have been indirectly linked to one another, rather than a formal alliance with distinct roles spelled out by an agreed upon treaty.  Because the truly great powers have foresight, they don't really need to talk to each other very often.  They know where their individual strengths lay and what their counterparts are likely to do as well.

(Boy is Harry going to be pissed if he finds out he is something of a group science experiment; though Lash kind of hinted to him that this might be the case in their final discussion in the Raith Deeps.)

I'm not sure why Maggie and Lord Raith would have to announced their plan or why they needed the agreement of the Red Court or Ebenezer McCoy.  What part were these two parties supposed to have played in creating a Starborn?  However, I think it is easy to see why different factions would have wanted to get control of Harry or kill him. 

If one party didn't really understand or believe the threat the Outsiders represented, then it might seem like a good idea to kill a Starborn wizard before he becomes the White Council's newest super weapon.  The reverse applies if the WC doesn't believe or fully understand the threat, and instead see a Starborn wizard as a super weapon who has been created as a tool of other dangerous supernatural powers.

I can understand why Lord Raith would want to create a Starborn wizard, especially one he could control.  He might have been protected by Outsider magic or some variant of it, and he did use human summoners to call up HWWB, but he could have thought that having a Starborn working for House Raith was a way to balance the scales between himself and the Outsiders.  In this way LR couldn't merely become an Outsider puppet, he could be their equal.   

If the OP is correct, or at least close to being correct, I would hypothesize that Margaret LeFay figured out how to create a Starborn child without assistance from the WC (Ebenezer), the WCV or the RC.  This would explain why LR didn't try to track down Harry as a child.  He didn't realize how important he was, and not just important to the curse which Margaret placed on LR.

I want to comment on Lea, Marcone and Nicodemus, but my observations aren't relevant to major idea of the OP.     

[KurtinStGeorge]

Lea - While reading the original OP I realized we have never been given a description of how Lea first introduced herself to Harry.  It must have occurred shortly after the scene we were given in Ghost Story when Harry first met and defeated HWWB.  That has got to be a great scene.  I really want to read Harry's reaction when Lea tells him she is his Fairy Godmother.  His psychotically murderous Fairy Godmother, but his Fairy Godmother just the same.  I believe it is possible that Lea had made deals with more than just Margaret.  I won't be surprised if we discover she made a deal with Justin DuMorne as well as Maggie, without ever telling either of them.  What I don't understand is what she would have gotten from Mab by acting as her proxy, if it turns out Mab has been following Harry's progress from the very beginning.  Though I suppose Mab might have given Lea the chance that she would gain strength and influence from controlling the Starborn wizard herself, though if that is correct I would suspect that Mab would have wanted a Starborn who could resist Lea's influence.  Mab told Harry that she watched him frustrate his Godmother in the Nevernever in GP.  That suggests Mab was watching Harry's progress and Lea was a kind of test that Harry had to pass in order to prove that he might eventually be worthy of being her Knight.   

Nicodemus - I don't think he believes that he might be recognized as a Saint because his actions eventually result in carrying out the wishes of the White God.  I suspect his beliefs are much darker than that and I'm hoping that aside from the snappy banter we expect when Harry and Nic cross verbal swords, Nicodemus will explain his personal philosophy (for lack of a better term) in more detail in the upcoming book.

Marcone - I don't believe that when Marcone shared a soulgaze with Harry that it was his introduction to the supernatural world.  However, it was probably proof that everything he had heard about the supernatural world was real.  I don't have Storm Front in front of me, but I remember Marcone said to Harry, "Mr Dresden, they say your the real Magus," (Not the exact quote, but very close.) which tells us that Marcone did his homework before he had that conversation with Harry.  There was also the scene much later in the story when Harry confronted Marcone; and the thug who was working for Victor Sells, at the Varsity Club.  Marcone told Harry that the few people who had been caught working for the Three-Eye distributor (Victor Sells) could only tell him them that he (Sells) appeared only in shadows.  Sells was obviously using the same spell he used when he confronted Harry outside his apartment in the thunder storm, while Harry and Susan were trying to escape the toad demon.  Hearing about an enemy who appeared as a disincorporate shadow was Marcone's first clue that the supernatural world was real.     

 

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

If I understand the OP correctly the proposed plan by Maggie and Lord Raith was to create a Startborn with the ability to oppose the Outsiders; and possibly unnamed others, for the benefit of all the major powers on Earth, be they mortal human wizards or vampires, and the supernatural powers of the Nevernever as well. 

Yes. If the world is eaten by Cthulhu everybody loses.

However, while Margaret LeFay and Lord Raith openly proposed this plan; possibly with the support of Justin DuMorne, the truly major supernatural powers; represented by Uriel, Odin and Mab, have been working in a covert fashion, and generally speaking their efforts have been indirectly linked to one another, rather than a formal alliance with distinct roles spelled out by an agreed upon treaty.

This particular theory is agnostic on whether Uriel and Mab and Odin work together overtly or just have foresight/intellectus enough to plan based on what each other will do.  To my mind it is equally workable in either case; I have a personal preference for the notion that they overtly work together but not based ion anything strong enough to argue for it.

I'm not sure why Maggie and Lord Raith would have to announced their plan or why they needed the agreement of the Red Court or Ebenezer McCoy.  What part were these two parties supposed to have played in creating a Starborn? 

I'm not arguing for them having a direct role, more for this being a plan that would, had all gone smoothly, have protected them all from a major threat.  At very least, DV supernaturals being what they are, this could have been spun as leaving the Red Court, White Council, et potential alii indebted to Maggie and Lord R, if you want a less than altruistic motivation here,

I can understand why Lord Raith would want to create a Starborn wizard, especially one he could control.  He might have been protected by Outsider magic or some variant of it, and he did use human summoners to call up HWWB, but he could have thought that having a Starborn working for House Raith was a way to balance the scales between himself and the Outsiders.  In this way LR couldn't merely become an Outsider puppet, he could be their equal.

I really want to know when and how Lord R acquired his protection.

If the OP is correct, or at least close to being correct, I would hypothesize that Margaret LeFay figured out how to create a Starborn child without assistance from the WC (Ebenezer), the WCV or the RC.  This would explain why LR didn't try to track down Harry as a child.  He didn't realize how important he was, and not just important to the curse which Margaret placed on LR.

Lord R seems not to have known about Harry being Maggie's child prior to overhearing Thomas and Harry's talk around their soulgaze in BR.  I can see that either as Lord R not knowing Maggie had given birth (strikes me as unlikely) or alternatively that he's not kept in the loop on keeping track of Harry afterwards (which would fit with my suspicion that Justin's attempt to enthrall Harry is Justin going rogue and not part of anyone else's plan.)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Lea - While reading the original OP I realized we have never been given a description of how Lea first introduced herself to Harry.  It must have occurred shortly after the scene we were given in Ghost Story when Harry first met and defeated HWWB.  That has got to be a great scene.  I really want to read Harry's reaction when Lea tells him she is his Fairy Godmother.  His psychotically murderous Fairy Godmother, but his Fairy Godmother just the same.  I believe it is possible that Lea had made deals with more than just Margaret.  I won't be surprised if we discover she made a deal with Justin DuMorne as well as Maggie, without ever telling either of them.  What I don't understand is what she would have gotten from Mab by acting as her proxy, if it turns out Mab has been following Harry's progress from the very beginning.

The impression I got from SK is that having a hold over Harry is itself an asset to Lea, and a matter of prestige.  Once she gets hold of the athame as well, the combined worth of those is unbalancing enough that Mab has to take personal charge of Harry's debt.

Marcone - I don't believe that when Marcone shared a soulgaze with Harry that it was his introduction to the supernatural world.  However, it was probably proof that everything he had heard about the supernatural world was real.  I don't have Storm Front in front of me, but I remember Marcone said to Harry, "Mr Dresden, they say your the real Magus," (Not the exact quote, but very close.) which tells us that Marcone did his homework before he had that conversation with Harry.

I should check that scene again, because I do not recall anything to unambiguously say Marcone knows the supernatural is real, rather than merely being aware of Harry's reputation, at that point.

[Quantus]

I should check that scene again, because I do not recall anything to unambiguously say Marcone knows the supernatural is real, rather than merely being aware of Harry's reputation, at that point.

Well, given that he was aware enough to know of and intend a Soulgaze indicated that at the very least he has done his homework.  Said homework, however, could have been as simple as a visit to the back room of Bock Ordered Books. Though the line about "I choose which 'they' I listen to very carefully" makes me think he had a more specific informant on the matter.  Lacking other evidence, I just assumed that Vadderung had already made some level of contact by that point.  Marcone had, after all, been operating in the city and competing with various supernatural interests for years by that point.  If the cops had been aware of the supernatural for generations, he probably was as well to some degree.