Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes

[Raptor]

That is creepy, and I cannot see a counterargument, though I do not like it at all.

Yeah, that was just something that was tumbling around in my head while I was out with the dog. But, like you said: There's no counter argument.

Of course, it could also be explained by Raith's Hunger being ohmygoddity strong (so strong it simply absorbs ambient magic within a certain radius, or that could be Maggie's smothering curse), and he's freakin' old and has been hording knowledge in case it became useful, and the spell to summon HWWB is a part of it.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Yeah, that was just something that was tumbling around in my head while I was out with the dog. But, like you said: There's no counter argument.

Of course, it could also be explained by Raith's Hunger being ohmygoddity strong (so strong it simply absorbs ambient magic within a certain radius, or that could be Maggie's smothering curse), and he's freakin' old and has been hording knowledge in case it became useful, and the spell to summon HWWB is a part of it.

I prefer the theory that Lord R's protection against magic is a sophisticated Outsider-based spell that Maggie worked out for him, and that she left a trapdoor in it for her death curse.  I'm not seeing why so many people are quite so keen to tie the Hunger to Outsiders, and Harry does describe Lord R's protection as feeling like the mordite in DM.

[peregrine]

Why would she have left a trap door into it?  Granted, Eb isn't 100% in on the workings of everything, but given what he's said about it, it's far more likely that since Maggie couldn't reach him, she layered something else on top of his protection.  Otherwise, if she could bypass it, she could just kill him.

[Tami Seven]

I prefer the theory that Lord Raith made a deal with the Walkers/Outsiders to turn over Maggie's Starborn child to them in exchange for the Antimagic defense spell. Or that LR made the deal with the Outsiders at the time of the first Starborn, and they called in that favor when Maggie was discussing becoming the mother of the next Starborn child.

[Arjan]

Why would she have left a trap door into it?  Granted, Eb isn't 100% in on the workings of everything, but given what he's said about it, it's far more likely that since Maggie couldn't reach him, she layered something else on top of his protection.  Otherwise, if she could bypass it, she could just kill him.

That was explained in woj. What she did was actually far more effective than killing him. It effectively sandbagged the white court and tortured Lord Raith etc. See the woj

[Tami Seven]

That was explained in woj. What she did was actually far more effective than killing him. It effectively sandbagged the white court and tortured Lord Raith etc. See the woj

But she didn't need to have been involved in giving LR  his antimagic shield in order for her to have been able to use her death curse to work around it. In fact, Maggie's death curse had no effect of LRs' anti-magic shield, which is like a Tick's carapace. Her Death curse worked like a blanket, smothering Lord Raith from the outside and keeping him from drawing in the life energy he needed to feed upon. Harry described how it worked in BR.

[Arjan]

But she didn't need to have been involved in giving LR  his antimagic shield in order for her to have been able to use her death curse to work around it. In fact, Maggie's death curse had no effect of LRs' anti-magic shield, which is like a Tick's carapace. Her Death curse worked like a blanket, smothering Lord Raith from the outside and keeping him from drawing in the life energy he needed to feed upon. Harry described how it worked in BR.

The problem is if she was not the one that gave the protection to Lord Raith, and I think he needed a wizard for that which Lord Raith isn't himself, then he already had the protection. Either Margaret gave Lord Raith the protection or she knowingly consorted with someone who was protected by outsiders. She had visited the outer gates, she knew about outsiders.

That does not have to be that bad, she could have been on a mission for Lea and Mab directed against outsiders but we know she broke some laws, the outsider one could have been one of them. We just do not know enough about her but we know she did some bad things.

Either way she had studied his protection, she had enough nights for that, so she knew how to work around it even if she had not created it herself which is quite possible.

[Tami Seven]

The problem is if she was not the one that gave the protection to Lord Raith, and I think he needed a wizard for that which Lord Raith isn't himself, then he already had the protection. Either Margaret gave Lord Raith the protection or she knowingly consorted with someone who was protected by outsiders. She had visited the outer gates, she knew about outsiders.

That does not have to be that bad, she could have been on a mission for Lea and Mab directed against outsiders but we know she broke some laws, the outsider one could have been one of them. We just do not know enough about her but we know she did some bad things.

Either way she had studied his protection, she had enough nights for that, so she knew how to work around it even if she had not created it herself which is quite possible.

Assuming that LR had had the shield a long time, and that most experienced Wizards either knew about it or had heard rumors about it, and that Maggie either knew about it or heard rumors about it...she still might have had business dealings with LR for her own (Or Mab's or whatever) reason. It was a dangerous thing to do, but she took the risk.

As much as I find this UMO theory interesting, I still don't think it answers the questions well enough about Maggie and LR. The only thing I can suggest is that, the UMO (Or whomever) ,may have foreseen that the White Court would play an important role in the future war with the Outsiders, and that they had to gain some control or influence over it to make sure the White Court didn't join up with the Outsiders.

If someone predicted this, then I can imagine getting Maggie in close to Lord Raith may have been a calculated gamble. Might also explain why the Outsiders were directly involved in attempting to destroy the White Court in WN.

[Jcarlson171]

I like this theory but I think your forgetting a few aspects of the swiss army chainsaw.
1) he has a really good magic tutor in bob
2) he had or may still have a reference librarian in his head(lash may not be gone)
3) he's really good at finding things for his magic skill set
4) he can get anywhere in the world very quickly thanks to a map of the world he aquired again with references
5) he ate a guys magic who was very good a blowing stuff up
6) he has borrowed summer fire at one point so he may count as touched by summer (possible obtaining summer knight mantel if fix dies close to him)
7) he has an ultimate nuclear arsenal for just in case he needs really scary backup

things in parethesse may or may not be true and may just be super wags

[Orbweaver]

Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think.

That would depend, I suppose, on what Harry actually gained by way of perspective. Ebenezar gave him the message about Mab and/or other beings not being able to compromise or change his Will, which was pretty well disproved by the Shadow's whisper. (Yes, it was cheating according to Uriel, but it still shoved Harry onto a path he may not have otherwise taken. And if the Fallen are capable of it, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the higher-tier Old Ones can do it too.) Unless team UMO wanted Harry to consider things from a perspective in which he was nearly powerless to accomplish anything, thereby viewing those around him in a different light, the walkabout itself doesn't seem to have served a purpose beyond demonstrating that the Free Will clause is capable of being violated. And that doesn't really help turn Harry into a utility tool.

I don't, at this point, have enough handle on what the parasite is to have a strong feel for how it fits with this model.  I can buy it being a resurgent Lash operating against the goals of team UMO; I could also, given the ending of GS, speculate that its presence in Harry is somehow essentialled for keeping his body usable while his soul is on walkabout.

Well... I can quibble about the resurgent Lash bit. There's a text precedent for the parasite having been placed before Harry picked up Lasciel's coin in DM, but the biggest issue I have with it (as it fits with your model) is that Lash is the one who tells Harry about his capabilities versus the Outsiders. If Lash is against one or more of team UMO's goals... why on earth would that shadow have bothered revealing that information to Harry?

The parasite being a necessary component for Dresden keeping his "life"... well, that's sort of ironic, given the result of its current state.

[Quantus]

Yup, I looked it up after reading your post:

the complete conversation:

(click to show/hide)

(this is where they veer off into Body/Spirit/Soul philosophy, so ill cut there)

Bob is specifically saying that he only thinks Mabs' involved simply because she is in town, and seems to be specifically saying that IF they are working together its more of a one-time Marvel team-up sort of deal.  He goes on to say that in the same way all the players are involved (Fomor, servators, Aristedes) but not that they are all on the same team, just on the same gameboard.

So does the much more limited context of Bob's assertion change you theory RE. Mab's involvement?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Why would she have left a trap door into it?

Insurance against Lord R turning on her.

Granted, Eb isn't 100% in on the workings of everything, but given what he's said about it, it's far more likely that since Maggie couldn't reach him, she layered something else on top of his protection.  Otherwise, if she could bypass it, she could just kill him.

Killing him would just kill him.  Preventing him from feeding hobbles the whole White Court indefinitely.  I'm not seeing why she'd think killing him was preferable.

[peregrine]

Because he'd be dead.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Or that LR made the deal with the Outsiders at the time of the first Starborn, and they called in that favor when Maggie was discussing becoming the mother of the next Starborn child.

If you mean the previous starborn a thousand years ago (I do not think we know that was the first) I don't believe Lord Raith is known to be that old; his paintings of the mothers of his children do not go back nearly that far.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

But she didn't need to have been involved in giving LR  his antimagic shield in order for her to have been able to use her death curse to work around it. In fact, Maggie's death curse had no effect of LRs' anti-magic shield, which is like a Tick's carapace. Her Death curse worked like a blanket, smothering Lord Raith from the outside and keeping him from drawing in the life energy he needed to feed upon. Harry described how it worked in BR.

Harry describes how he thinks it works, yes.  There are at least two other plausible models for what could actually be going on there.