Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

What if the Erlking took advantage of an opportunity to go after Thomas in order to give him the choice, hide, flee or join. Getting Thomas to join, meant that the Erlking could influence him in such a way as to give him a power boost.

That seems quite possible, to me; I'm not seeing evidence enough to argue for it, but I could believe it.

Then there is the Archive (Not necessarily Ivy), who might also be in on this in her own way. Choosing Thomas to be a Venator meant giving him a pathway to becoming stronger as well.

*nod* i suppose that one would depend on whether Maggie and company wrote anything down, though Mab could also theoretically have informed her.

Of course, Mab seems to think she has rights over, not only Harry but Thomas also. Who knows where that might lead.

I think her primary motivation in saying that is to give Harry another incentive to be Knight rather than actually much wanting Thomas; he'd certainly not be a bad backup but I doubt it was more than that.

[ballplayer72]

Either that or he had something really big going on with the mound-builder civilisations that failed  spectacularly, I suppose.

(Nicodemus with his plague habit connected to collapse and death of native American cultures on contact with European diseases ?  The Little Ice Age starting when all those Native Americans weren't using fires and in many cases slash-and-char agriculture and ending when the Industrial Revolution started replenishing those greenhouse gases again as an echo of stuff going on in Faerie ?  Interesting direction, but not enough ahd data to go on.)

OK, I had forgotten that, and that certainly counts as a boost more than just psychological.

I don't think we have any real evidence to distinguish that from Thomas always having been that good and just going to great lengths to hide it, though.  It's pretty clear that he's been doing the "useless party animal" act for a long time to avoid being taken as a threat. (I can see Maggie planning Thomas being as strong a White Court vampire as she could make him, and being born on Valentine's Day seems like it should give him a boost there too.)

Thats certainly an interesting WAG.  Or maybe he had something to do with Eric the Red going to newfoundland? Either way very interesting.



I figured just like with the other flavors of supes we've seen, that age would translate to some extra juice/ability.  Blacks seem to run by age, Reds do certainly (though they also use prestige/bloodline which presumably the blacks do as well with the master thing) I figured the white court wouldn't be too terribly different.  Certainly LR kept it together for 30 years + without any food and with some power use (he used it on the fam after all to say nothing of his "hunting trips" with thomas or any other use he might have had) and without going batshit nuts, whereas thomas couldn't handle that during DB.  Not at all.  He was like a junkie trying real hard not to look at the bag of smack and the fresh needle on the table in front of him.  Whereas LR was always cold as ice and while monstrous, not exactly as coo coo for cocoa puffs as say RK was.   I figured his gas tank got bigger as he aged, at the very least, same thing with Lara.  Seems like Thomas maybe didn't pick up an outside the realm of possibility for whampires buff but more along the lines of "here's a few free levels/points" .   Just spitballing.

[raidem]

Dead Beat
- Incidental observation that feels like it fits in with this model somehow; one thing DB accomplished was to show Harry that necromancy is not inherently evil (Kumori saving the life of random gangster dude) and then give him experience of using it himself in a not inherently evil manner (Sue). One more blade to the Swiss Army chainsaw as needed.

It does seem like cowl and kumori were working from a time travel angle or at least information about the future that guided their purposes in Dead Beat.  It seems very important to Harry's acceptance of necromancy that he was exposed to it via Kumori, and found it to be possibly neutral and/or bent toward positive aims.  I also think mavra was playing a game of pointing Harry  at the other Necromancers.  I really do believe she is a 'good' bad guy that is working against the Outsiders.  I realize her magic is Outsiderish but it would be more interesting if the black court were refugees from the Outside.  It is apparent that the Black Court requires the existence of humanity to keep their 'species' going.  I also wonder at Marcones and Gards involvement in giving Harry information that led to him getting significant information of the Necromancy that Kumori was involved in.  I also would like to point out that the ambulance driver/medic appeared in Cold Days when I believe they arrived at Molly's apartment to care for the wounded.  I believe that was Eyes girlfriend that went with them.  It is apparent that the medic will play an important part in the future.  I wonder at Kumori's awareness of this fact.  Neuro, you did a good job coming up with this referential theory.

[Orbweaver]

Hey Neuro,

I'm curious as to how Harry's death in Changes fits into the theory. Mortal free will is important, according to the theory- except Harry's death was a result of a compromised Free Will, and neither Uriel nor Mab moved or acted to stop it, despite their intelligence level/foresight. I can understand Uriel not being able to act to prevent it, given that he may not be able to act unless his opponent breaks a rule, but Harry had to answer Mab when she asked him about partaking of the death angel, as she put it, to get out of another deal with her (per Changes). Per your theory, wouldn't she have acted, in some way shape or form, to prevent him from taking his own life even though he gave his word that he wouldn't? 

Also, the presence of the parasite within Harry for as long as it was there poses some issues. With it perpetually feeding off of Harry (and, presumably, any / all powerups he received during the time frame in which it was present), coupled with its ability to nearly incapacitate him with headaches (as we see during the opening chapters of SG), you have a really good recipe for a permanently dead starborn swiss army/utility knife.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'm curious as to how Harry's death in Changes fits into the theory. Mortal free will is important, according to the theory- except Harry's death was a result of a compromised Free Will, and neither Uriel nor Mab moved or acted to stop it, despite their intelligence level/foresight. I can understand Uriel not being able to act to prevent it, given that he may not be able to act unless his opponent breaks a rule, but Harry had to answer Mab when she asked him about partaking of the death angel, as she put it, to get out of another deal with her (per Changes). Per your theory, wouldn't she have acted, in some way shape or form, to prevent him from taking his own life even though he gave his word that he wouldn't? 

Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think. 

Also, the presence of the parasite within Harry for as long as it was there poses some issues. With it perpetually feeding off of Harry (and, presumably, any / all powerups he received during the time frame in which it was present), coupled with its ability to nearly incapacitate him with headaches (as we see during the opening chapters of SG), you have a really good recipe for a permanently dead starborn swiss army/utility knife.

I don't, at this point, have enough handle on what the parasite is to have a strong feel for how it fits with this model.  I can buy it being a resurgent Lash operating against the goals of team UMO; I could also, given the ending of GS, speculate that its presence in Harry is somehow essentialled for keeping his body usable while his soul is on walkabout.

[Tami Seven]

Not if the knowledge and perspective he can only gain from that walkabout is part and parcel of the training, I would think. 

I don't, at this point, have enough handle on what the parasite is to have a strong feel for how it fits with this model.  I can buy it being a resurgent Lash operating against the goals of team UMO; I could also, given the ending of GS, speculate that its presence in Harry is somehow essentialled for keeping his body usable while his soul is on walkabout.

Mab did say something at the end of GS about The Quiet One (Uriel) and how he Angered Mab and "Had he been incorrect..", they may be working towards the same goal, but obviously Uriel and Mab have different ideas as to how to achieve them. Mab couldn't stop Uriel from playing his Gambit, nor could she have stopped Kincaid from shooting Harry in the first place, but she seemed to have expected both. Was prepared for both. I'd say this is an example of Uriel and Mab working together but being at odds with each other.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Mab did say something at the end of GS about The Quiet One (Uriel) and how he Angered Mab and "Had he been incorrect..", they may be working towards the same goal, but obviously Uriel and Mab have different ideas as to how to achieve them.

I thought I'd addressed that point a few posts ago; "had he been incorrect" doesn't mean he could have been incorrect, and I can quite see that Mab could be angry with Uriel insisting this was a necessary part of the plan while still going along with the plan as a whole.

[Kscodemonkey]

Are we sure Harry being Starborn was planned?  I don't remember anything specific in the books or WOJ saying that.  However, I am sure I am probably wrong considering it is taken as gospel around here.  I was thinking that maybe all this hoopla around Harry being starborn isn't because they planned it but because it just happened.  Maybe the "key" ingredient is that he was born while his mother was killed by outsider enhanced magic.  Not just that she was killed by magic during his birth but that part of the catalyst of his birth was energy from "outside".  The reason Starborn are so rare is that outsider magic isn't used on women in the process of delivery very often.

The reason Elaine is a "candidate" is because her mother died during childbirth.  Maybe even by magic.  She is described as candidate and not a starborn because they don't know if OUTSIDER magic is envolved.

[Tami Seven]

Are we sure Harry being Starborn was planned?  I don't remember anything specific in the books or WOJ saying that.  However, I am sure I am probably wrong considering it is taken as gospel around here.  I was thinking that maybe all this hoopla around Harry being starborn isn't because they planned it but because it just happened.  Maybe the "key" ingredient is that he was born while his mother was killed by outsider enhanced magic.  Not just that she was killed by magic during his birth but that part of the catalyst of his birth was energy from "outside".  The reason Starborn are so rare is that outsider magic isn't used on women in the process of delivery very often.

The reason Elaine is a "candidate" is because her mother died during childbirth.  Maybe even by magic.  She is described as candidate and not a starborn because they don't know if OUTSIDER magic is envolved.

We really don't know anything about Elaine's background. Being an orphan,  the assumption is that her parents are dead, but when and how they died is unknown.  Forcall we know, her parents are still alive but just abandoned her to the system because they were unable or unwilling to care for her. Her being a Starborn is WOJ. No other evidence,  aside from being adopted by Justin,  is made available. 

As for Harry, it is still speculation.  We know he is Starborn, we know Maggie intended to have a Starborn child. We know she had business dealings with the bigwigs in the Supernatural Community and an association with the Winter Court. But Harry being Starborn is pretty much a given,  and Maggie planning on having a Starborn is fairly well accepted. 

[Sully]

I think from what we have seen of Thomas feeding, it doesn't need to involve intercourse specifically.

Considering he can nibble while washing hair, I'd say not.

Not a lack of forethought, maybe they just weren't playing attention. Both of them have a lot of balls to juggle. Michael was 'off the clock', while Harry was a personal interest of Lea, and Lea might be withholding details from Mab.

If Heaven has a vested interest in Harry and his behavior, and seeks to influence it(yes), Michael might be on the clock with his every interaction with Harry.   Just not getting hazard pay, for a nice change. 

Shiro's sacrifice fits in neatly too.

Mind you, I'm WAG'ing here.

[peregrine]

Elaine is a candidate because she's also effectively the same age as Harry.  We don't actually know that her mom died in childbirth.

[Raptor]

Without reading a lot of the replies, I support most of this, with a couple modifications:

1) Rename it "Team UFO", The faeries (ie Mothers Summer & Winter) are working in concert, even if Titania is depressed at the moment.

2) Uriel didn't EXACTLY intend for Harry to have access to Soulfire. Rather that is a byproduct of restoring a "spark of the Divine" (for lack of a better term) to Lash, the former shadow of Lasciel. Harry's access to Soulfire is a byproduct that has helped to keep him alive until Lash is done incubating (again, for lack of a better term). I think Lash will get a body (Persephone), and play a pretty important role going forward.

EDIT: One more thought - I don't think Justin, Papa Raith, and Arianna were trying to create a Starborn, but rather prevent a Starborn. If Harry was the ultimate product of their plan, why did they both try very, very hard to kill him?

As a corollary to that, how about the thought that Lord Raith IS Nemesis (or at least it's primary host in our world). That would go to explain how those associated with him have knowledge to summon HWWB. That could explain why mortal magic doesn't affect him.

Maggie's death curse smothering him might explain why Nemesis is limited in who/what it can influence (no mortals as far as we know, and only not-too-powerful immortals).

That also leads to the incredibly scary thought that he/it might be conning Harry and he/it are actually influencing/controlling Lara, who is currently expanding her power base into mortal politics and the BFS.

[Sully]

I like that Papa Raith idea.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Are we sure Harry being Starborn was planned?  I don't remember anything specific in the books or WOJ saying that.  However, I am sure I am probably wrong considering it is taken as gospel around here.

I think the primary evidence we are taking here is Lash's comment in WN about Harry's power being derived from a complex confluence of energies and circumstances; it seems more plausible that that was a deliberate act of Maggie, whom we know was a highly skilled wiard, than random chance.

(Plus also, I'm not sure of any "random chance" in the DV that can be proven not to be the WG's thumb on the scales.)

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

EDIT: One more thought - I don't think Justin, Papa Raith, and Arianna were trying to create a Starborn, but rather prevent a Starborn. If Harry was the ultimate product of their plan, why did they both try very, very hard to kill him?

In Lord R's case, thirty years of starvation may well have changed a priorities. As for the others, they only go for killing Harry after a long span of attempting to convert him.

As a corollary to that, how about the thought that Lord Raith IS Nemesis (or at least it's primary host in our world). That would go to explain how those associated with him have knowledge to summon HWWB. That could explain why mortal magic doesn't affect him.

Maggie's death curse smothering him might explain why Nemesis is limited in who/what it can influence (no mortals as far as we know, and only not-too-powerful immortals).

That also leads to the incredibly scary thought that he/it might be conning Harry and he/it are actually influencing/controlling Lara, who is currently expanding her power base into mortal politics and the BFS.

That is creepy, and I cannot see a counterargument, though I do not like it at all.