Team UMO: a theory, for reference purposes

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Neuro, when you get a chance, could you add exactly what you mean by the Swiss Army Chainsaw theory?

The proposed object of the exercise is for a starborn human (which appears to principally mean, thus far, one with seriously atypical power over/resistance against Outsiders) to have as much access as possible to as many of the various magical power sources as the DF has.

Hence Harry, thus far, is a strong wizard (Maggie's genetics plus lots of exercise); has experienced Hellfire and later been granted soulfire; has some familiarity with necromancy; has faith magic from his faith in what magic is for (lighting up his pentacle); and most recently  acquired a Winter mantle.  All of which are things he can use more efficiently against Outsiders than almost anyone else because of the starborn-ness.

[Quantus]

Ok, all laid out there I disagree with a lot less of this theory than I thought I would.  While I doubt they often sit down for afternoon tea, I have no problem with both Uriel and Odin working towards a common goal and with a certain amount of accommodation if not active conspiracy. 

My main contention is in characterizing Mab as (knowing/willing) part of that alliance.  Correct me if Im wrong, but the only evidence you site that she is working with them is that bit from bob in GS.  But Bob's theory that they were working together was purely based on the fact that there was an unusually long winter indicating that she was still in town.  Which we later learned was because Uriel had, apparently against her wishes, taken Harry's soul on walkabout, forcing her to sit still on earth and give mouth-to-mouth to a human for months, out of season and at great personal strain.  All so he could teach her new pet that he she was mistaken in her belief that she could mold him at her whim.  And in this case at least we can be certain that she was not simply misleading him as part of some greater manipulation, since we have a WOJ that she was being entirely Truthful, and just happened to be entirely Wrong.  If it were all a collaborative scheme between her and Uriel, that could not have been the case. 

Im not saying Mab isn't a Grade A puppetmaster, but I think she's getting handled as much as she is handling Harry.  In the Grand scheme she isnt master of the house, she is the big scary Guard Dog at the gate to keep trespassers out; and Titania is the slightly less scary violently aggressive Dog in the house that's there to stop the big scary dog if she gets off her leash.




PS. is it just me or does every thread seem to derail into a White Court discussion lately?  I myself derailed the Deidre thread earlier today....

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

That last part doesn't make sense,  only in that apparently the recipe for a Starborn involved a man more like Malcolm.  So...when Maggie ran away to find him, LR killed her. Admittedly just as she was giving birth to her Starborn child. Why did LR keep her for 6 years? Why didn't he work with her to make sure she had her Starborn child as per the recipe?

My admittedly fairly wild preferred theory there is that Maggie's death at the time of childbirth is part of the Starborn recipe and a willing sacrifice on her part.  I don't believe that she was naive enough about magic to leave anything he could target an Entropy Curse on if she had to escape his thrall, or that if he just wanted her dead it would hit her at that precisely calibrated a moment and not before.

As for keeping her six years, I propose that he is working with her, in helping identify and bring about the conditions needed for a Starborn.

[Tami Seven]

My admittedly fairly wild preferred theory there is that Maggie's death at the time of childbirth is part of the Starborn recipe and a willing sacrifice on her part.  I don't believe that she was naive enough about magic to leave anything he could target an Entropy Curse on if she had to escape his thrall, or that if he just wanted her dead it would hit her at that precisely calibrated a moment and not before.

As for keeping her six years, I propose that he is working with her, in helping identify and bring about the conditions needed for a Starborn.

I wonder what Thomas and Harry would say if they heard this theory...

[forumghost]

My admittedly fairly wild preferred theory there is that Maggie's death at the time of childbirth is part of the Starborn recipe and a willing sacrifice on her part.  I don't believe that she was naive enough about magic to leave anything he could target an Entropy Curse on if she had to escape his thrall, or that if he just wanted her dead it would hit her at that precisely calibrated a moment and not before.

As for keeping her six years, I propose that he is working with her, in helping identify and bring about the conditions needed for a Starborn.

He had Thomas. That's already enough. And besides, IIRC the Ritual he used in BR didn't actually require anything tied to the victim to target them.

[Quantus]

And I dont have my nice searchable ebooks here, but didnt they say somewhere in the early books that it didnt absolutely have to be body-part related, that personal items or even a good picture could work?

[Tami Seven]

In BR, there were 3 witches. Two doing the ritual,  one close to the target acting to aim it. The details beyond that I'm not sure.

[Quantus]

In BR, there were 3 witches. Two doing the ritual,  one close to the target acting to aim it. The details beyond that I'm not sure.

three witches but all needed as part of the ritual.  Until the last scene when Ex #1 did it all herself, but she was a legitimate practitioner in her own right slinging spells around.  But they just needed to chant at the right time, and have a human sacrifice. 

[SAZ]

Neuro – great stuff and thanks for laying it out all in one place. I think you are spot on in a broad general way and it is only in the details that some of the darts might be off center.

I like the idea of Lea being a catalyst or at least being involved in the early stages. Her stature in the DV seems overlooked sometimes by us readers. Besides what you have mentioned, I recall that at the party during some tense moment (book is not handy right now) Lea and Ferro even held hands? Or she grabbed his arm I think. Considering WoJs about his importance and power, it speaks volumes that he did not reject her and considered her someone worthy of his company.

[Quantus]

Neuro – great stuff and thanks for laying it out all in one place. I think you are spot on in a broad general way and it is only in the details that some of the darts might be off center.

I like the idea of Lea being a catalyst or at least being involved in the early stages. Her stature in the DV seems overlooked sometimes by us readers. Besides what you have mentioned, I recall that at the party during some tense moment (book is not handy right now) Lea and Ferro even held hands? Or she grabbed his arm I think. Considering WoJs about his importance and power, it speaks volumes that he did not reject her and considered her someone worthy of his company.

She "laid her hand on Mister Ferro's arm, frowning faintly, standing well out of the way" right as things were going to hell when Mavra was about to destroy Amoracchius.  The implication was that she was restraining him from getting involved.  Ive always been curious which side he would have thrown in on.  Im guessing he would have squished Harry and Michael flat, if for no other reason that helping his Host. 

[Fangz]

Ok, all laid out there I disagree with a lot less of this theory than I thought I would.  While I doubt they often sit down for afternoon tea, I have no problem with both Uriel and Odin working towards a common goal and with a certain amount of accommodation if not active conspiracy. 

My main contention is in characterizing Mab as (knowing/willing) part of that alliance.  Correct me if Im wrong, but the only evidence you site that she is working with them is that bit from bob in GS.  But Bob's theory that they were working together was purely based on the fact that there was an unusually long winter indicating that she was still in town.  Which we later learned was because Uriel had, apparently against her wishes, taken Harry's soul on walkabout, forcing her to sit still on earth and give mouth-to-mouth to a human for months, out of season and at great personal strain.  All so he could teach her new pet that he she was mistaken in her belief that she could mold him at her whim.  And in this case at least we can be certain that she was not simply misleading him as part of some greater manipulation, since we have a WOJ that she was being entirely Truthful, and just happened to be entirely Wrong.  If it were all a collaborative scheme between her and Uriel, that could not have been the case. 

Im not saying Mab isn't a Grade A puppetmaster, but I think she's getting handled as much as she is handling Harry.  In the Grand scheme she isnt master of the house, she is the big scary Guard Dog at the gate to keep trespassers out; and Titania is the slightly less scary violently aggressive Dog in the house that's there to stop the big scary dog if she gets off her leash.




PS. is it just me or does every thread seem to derail into a White Court discussion lately?  I myself derailed the Deidre thread earlier today....

Without Harry's interference, Corpsetaker was going to take over Molly, aka Faerie Lady Failsafe #2. That is unacceptable, so Harry's actions in GS did serve Mab's interests. I'm sure that if UMO is the case, the three sides are probably not fully frank with each other. Especially with Mab, since being fully frank with Mab means all sorts of weirdness with respect to 'who owes who a favour now', etc etc.

This might actually explain why Mab wants her allies to act independently of her, even her knight (compare the tighter hold Titania puts on her Lady and Knight, geas and all). Because it circumvents the Winter Queen's big tactical weakness - that she has to follow rules and obligations.

[Fangz]

Still, I don't really see this as a long standing alliance. Because I don't think Uriel and Winter really interact, until we get to a certain point. I think the alliance, if it exists, probably only really came into existence with the party at Bianca's place - and perhaps afterwards, when Lea's infection was apparent. After which, I assume Uriel and Mab got together and realised: Oh shit, the Adversary very nearly fucked the both of us, didn't it?

[ballplayer72]

The proposed object of the exercise is for a starborn human (which appears to principally mean, thus far, one with seriously atypical power over/resistance against Outsiders) to have as much access as possible to as many of the various magical power sources as the DF has.

Hence Harry, thus far, is a strong wizard (Maggie's genetics plus lots of exercise); has experienced Hellfire and later been granted soulfire; has some familiarity with necromancy; has faith magic from his faith in what magic is for (lighting up his pentacle); and most recently  acquired a Winter mantle.  All of which are things he can use more efficiently against Outsiders than almost anyone else because of the starborn-ness.

You missed a new source: DR and the Warden mantle.   And possibly a small buff from the wild hunt, afterall thomas picked up a LITTLE somethin somethin (enhanced senses maybe? he seems... sharper I guess after DB) and he just joined up.  Harry didn't just join it, he led it for a bit.  At the behest of santa odin and Herne who pretty much shanghaied him into it.  Maybe a slightly tougher buff? 
Is there any sort of WOJ on how harry picked up TOOTs true name?  Cause toot has saved his bacon a number of times. 

[Tami Seven]

Still, I don't really see this as a long standing alliance. Because I don't think Uriel and Winter really interact, until we get to a certain point. I think the alliance, if it exists, probably only really came into existence with the party at Bianca's place - and perhaps afterwards, when Lea's infection was apparent. After which, I assume Uriel and Mab got together and realised: Oh shit, the Adversary very nearly fucked the both of us, didn't it?

I wouldn't have referred to them as a Team, more as a temporary Alliance. It appears that Uriel, Mab and Odin (and maybe others) don't always see eye-to-eye, but they may share a singular common purpose...Harry. But I do like the idea that those three had been plotting something for some time.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Hey Neuro great job in putting all these ideas into a very clear and organized format.

Thank you.

1) Even if UMO aren't actually working hand in hand in the traditional sense, the fact that each of them has omniscient-level omniscience, and that they are all presumably working against Outsiders means that they must be "sharing future threads".

That would seem entirely workable to me, but not really functionally distinguishable from sitting down and planning together in terms of how it affects the plot of the books at Harry's level.

2) WoJ:
Not sure how what this brings to bear on the theory, but worth mentioning.

That was the one I was thinking of in re Lea being around Harry when he was young.

3) We are told (end of SmF) that the only way Uriel could give Harry Soulfire is if Hell broke the rules first.  It is not impossible that UMO manipulated the Denarians into making a play for Ivy just so Harry could get Soulfire (and possibly have a first meeting with Demonreach).

Maybe indeed.  I had been thinking, though, that Captain Jack, in GS, motivates Harry by warning him about three of his friends being due to be broken, maimed or killed if he does not go back; this is someone who works for Uriel doing something that attains Uriel's desired end, which Uriel itself cannot do and appears to verbally reprimand him for.  I'm positing that, much as part of the point of a Faerie Knight appears to be for Faerie to have an agent who can exercise free will for Faerie ends in ways Faerie themselves cannot, Uriel having mortals working for him derives similar benefit - and Nicodemus maybe counting under the same logic Captain Jack does.