Dexterity Powers

[PirateJack]

So I'm not a fan of the In/Sup/Mythic Dexterity powers and have decided to re-write them so that fit the same theme as the other building block powers. Also a player in my campaign wanted to take it and my brain rebelled. I'd like some opinions on my first draft to see if it could be improved upon at all, and whether the cost is right. I'm afraid Steady Hand and its upgrades may make it a bit too powerful for -2 refresh.

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INHUMAN DEXTERITY [-2]
Description: Your hand-eye co-ordination is abnormally good, capable of putting even the best surgeons to shame.
Skills Affected: Weapons, Deceit, other skills that require dexterity.
Effects:
Fencing Master: Your bladework is so fast that you make Olympians weep. +1 to Weapons.
Sleight of Hand: Manual tricks and card work are child's play for you. +2 to Deceit when using it for Distraction and Misdirection.
Steady Hand: Some things require patience and a steady hand to see them through. +2 to the Building, Fixing and Lockpicking trappings.

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SUPERNATURAL DEXTERITY [-4]
Description: There's being fast and then there's being good.
Skills Affected: Weapons, Deceit, other skills that require dexterity.
Effects:
Born with a Sword in Hand: Swordplay is as natural as breathing to you. +2 to Weapons.
Look, a Distraction!: Even experienced card sharps can't spot your tricks. +4 to Deceit when using it for Distraction and Misdirection.
Give me a Real Challenge: You break into bank vaults for fun and then improve the locks. +4 to the Building, Fixing and Lockpicking trappings.

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MYTHIC DEXTERITY [-6]
Description: Your fingers are a blur to anyone who looks.
Skills Affected: Weapons, Deceit, other skills that require dexterity.
Effects:
THIS IS SPARTA!: You're either a God of War or the next best thing. +3 to Weapons.
Find the Ace in the Nth Dimension: Your card tricks are physically impossible. How the hell did you do that? +6 to Deceit when using it for Distraction and Misdirection.
The World Stands Still: There is no lock on this planet that is too tough for you. You once made a clock that ticked in time to the heart of a star. +6 to the Building, Fixing and Lockpicking trappings.

[Taran]

I haven't seen the original powers but I see some things that I, as a GM, would have problems with.  Here's some suggestions...not sure if they're what you're looking for.

Born with a sword in hand
A straight bonus to weapons seems powerful and not in keeping with the power.  I can see fencing, throwing knives, catching things, juggling and using small, quick weapons.  But I don't know how well it'd help swinging a claymore or a club, for instance.  Maybe have it limited to a class of weapons or something...or choose one 'type' of weapon. I don't know.

Look, a Distraction looks good.

Give me a real challenge: 
Maybe instead of a straight bonus, reduce the time it takes for building and fixing things. for things like extended tests where you make a roll every "X" time increment, you could reduce it on the time chart.  I don't like the idea of a straight bonus to lock-picking because modern day vaults involve a lot of high-tech computer stuff...and while dexterity helps, it takes a lot of intelligence.  So the fine motor skills would make it Faster but not necessarily easier.

So maybe, instead of a straight +2/4/6, make it a +1/2/3 and have it reduce the time by 0 steps, 1 steps, 2 steps.   

In general
I'd also have something where any instance where a fine motor skill might modify a skill, it always compliments, regardless of the skill level.  (kind of how the Strength and toughness powers )

Superior Strength. Whenever using your
Might to modify (page 214) another skill, it
always provides a +1 regardless of the actual
comparison of your Might score to the skill
in question.

[Haru]

I think most of this should work as it is. Not really a fan of a flat +1/+2/+3 weapon bonus. It is extremely powerful on the one hand, while at the same time, it is sort of dull.

I think Steady Hand would work better the way "Almost too fast to see" from speed works. If there is added bonus to the difficulty from factors like tiny size or intricate details, that is reduced by 2/4/6. It reflects the fact that those circumstances don't bother you as much as they would regular people. But nimble fingers don't replace learning actual skills. They make it easier, sure, but they don't replace it.

My biggest issue, I'm sort of missing a consistent theme going through the power, a feeling that all of this belongs together. I know it's supposed to be "dexterity", and it's sort of there, yes, but to me, this looks more like a way to stack a bunch of loosely related bonuses together into an "I can do everything" power. Especially since the examples of dexterity in the powers differ so vastly from each other that they don't really feel like they fit under the same roof. Granted, it's probably not too bad, given the chosen skills, but still, I feel like you would be better served if you sorted some of those bonuses out individually by character, rather than doing it like this.

[Sanctaphrax]

I like what Haru and Taran have said, but I have some stuff to add.

1. If you're gonna boost Weapons, you might as well boost Fists and Guns as well.
2. You should probably specify which trappings the Weapons boost affects. Mostly so that it doesn't affect knowledge rolls. And so that it's clear how it interacts with stunts that move trappings to Weapons.
3. The ability to draw and reload weapons without taking a supplemental action penalty would be fitting.
4. I'd be careful with the +6 bonuses, if I were you.

[PirateJack]

Thanks for the input guys. There are some great suggestions in there that I wish I'd thought of myself. Especially the time increment reduction. That one fits much better than a flat +2/4/6 bonus. So, now for the first re-write!

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INHUMAN DEXTERITY [-2]
Description: Your hand-eye co-ordination is abnormally good, capable of putting even the best surgeons to shame.
Skills Affected: Burglary, Weapons, other skills that require dexterity.
Effects:
Fencing Master: Small blades and short swords are your bread and butter. +1 to Weapons when using small or light weapons. This does not apply to the Weapon Knowledge trapping.
Sleight of Hand: Deception is the art of showing one thing while doing another. Whenever using Weapons to modify another skill, it always provides a +1 regardless of the actual comparison of your Weapons score to the skill in question.
Steady Hand: Some things require patience and a steady hand to see them through. Difficulty factors due to tiny size or intricate details are reduced by 2 when rolling.
Quick Draw: When you draw or reload a weapon you do not take a -1 penalty from supplemental actions.

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SUPERNATURAL DEXTERITY [-4]
Description: There's being fast and then there's being good. This power replaces Inhuman Dexterity.
Skills Affected: Burglary, Weapons, other skills that require dexterity.
Effects:
Born with a Sword in Hand: Swordplay is as natural as breathing to you. +2 to Weapons when using small or light weapons. This does not apply to the Weapon Knowledge trapping.
It's All in the Wrist Action: Juggling knives is an old hobby for you. Whenever using Weapons to modify another skill, it always provides a +2 regardless of the actual comparison of your Weapons score to the skill in question.
Give me a Real Challenge: Your eyes are as sharp as your blade and have little difficulty in spotting flaws. Difficulty factors due to tiny size or intricate details are reduced by 4 when rolling.
Quick Draw: When you draw or reload a weapon you do not take a -1 penalty from supplemental actions.

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MYTHIC DEXTERITY [-6]
Description: Your fingers are a blur to anyone who looks. This power replaces Supernatural Dexterity.
Skills Affected: Burglary, Weapons, other skills that require dexterity.
Effects:
One With the Blade: Your blade is a blur and your name is Death. +3 to Weapons when using small or light weapons. This does not apply to the Weapon Knowledge trapping.
Master of Deception: You can get more with a kind word and a sword than you can with just a kind word. Whenever using Weapons to modify another skill, it always provides a +3 regardless of the actual comparison of your Weapons score to the skill in question.
The World Stands Still: You could pick the lock of Fort Knox if you wanted, and could do it in seconds too. Difficulty factors due to tiny size or intricate details are reduced by 6 when rolling.
Quick Draw: When you draw or reload a weapon you do not take a -1 penalty from supplemental actions.

Okay, I've dropped the support skills down a bit so that they don't give flat bonuses to skills any more. This should make the Weapons bonus a bit more prominent and bring it more into line with the refresh cost. I'm not much a fan of it either, but the purpose of this power is to do for Weapons what the Speed powers do for Athletics and the Strength powers do for Might. The Weapons bonus now doesn't apply to the Knowledge trapping as well.

I'm less inclined to give a bonus to Fists/Guns, though I admit it does fit with the idea of dexterity. Any ideas on how to make this less of an issue? A re-flavouring maybe?

Still feels a bit clunky, but it's getting closer to what I want from this power.

[Taran]

So here's my take:

You mentioned that you like the idea of reducing time increments, but haven't incorporated it. 

I like the quick-draw.  It makes sense and fits well.

You've turned it into a Weapons power so now I don't know how the Sleight of Hand fits the theme.  Originally, I liked the bonus to sleight of hand and misdirection because it fit the flavour you were going for, but you've gotten rid of it.  I think, the way this power is now, most people are going to have weapons as an apex skill thus making the power redundant.

Maybe you can let it give a bonus to concealing a light weapon?

and/or

Maybe it can let you use weapons instead of stealth or deceit skill to do an ambush?

Basically, you draw your weapon so fast, you catch people off-guard.  I wouldn't let this stack with the bonus to weapons skill, though.

[Sanctaphrax]

...the purpose of this power is to do for Weapons what the Speed powers do for Athletics and the Strength powers do for Might.

...

I'm less inclined to give a bonus to Fists/Guns, though I admit it does fit with the idea of dexterity. Any ideas on how to make this less of an issue? A re-flavouring maybe?

If you want it to be a Weapons Power, I'd suggest a reflavouring. Dexterity applies to much more than just Weapons.

Maybe call it Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Swordsmanship, or something like that.

Then you could ditch the lockpicking and stuff in exchange for stuff like spray attacks with Weapons and Weapons-based ranged defence.

[Taran]

If you want it to be a Weapons Power, I'd suggest a reflavouring. Dexterity applies to much more than just Weapons.

Maybe call it Inhuman/Supernatural/Mythic Swordsmanship, or something like that.

Then you could ditch the lockpicking and stuff in exchange for stuff like spray attacks with Weapons and Weapons-based ranged defence.

The spray attacks idea is good.

Quick Draw - Inhuman- No supplemental for drawing a weapon
                        - Supernatural- Once per scene, before a combat starts, you can draw your weapon with such speed that you can catch an enemy off-guard:  Roll weapons vs alertness, if you succeed, you may make an Ambush attack against one foe.
                          Mythic As per Supernatural but you get a +1 to the roll vs alertness (not the attack roll)

Spray attacks - Inhuman: You may make spray attacks with a melee weapon
                            -Supernatural: you get a +1 for the purpose of spray attacks.  The Bonus can be allocated any way you like but the total for a single attack cannot exceed your weapons skill. 
                            -Mythic: You get a +2 for the purposes of spray attacks.  The bonuses can be allocated any way you like but the total for a single attack cannot exceed your weapons skill

Born with Weapon in hand The weapons skill never restricts or is restricted by another skill.  You could drive your motor-cycle while sword-fighting without penalty.

Swift Parry:    I'm not sure giving bonuses to parrying is a good idea.  How about this:
                         Inhuman:  You get a +1 to parry melee attacks.  You must be aware of the attack.
                         Supernatural: Even bullets look slow to you.  +1 to parry melee and you can also parry ranged attacks. You must be aware of the attack.
                         Mythic:  You can parry melee and ranged attacks at +1 to  your weapons skill. You must be aware of the attack.

Edit:  Speed powers give a straight up bonus to dodge, so maybe this power can do the same. +1/+2/+3 for each level, respectively.

These are suggestions.  NOt sure how balanced they are.

[Sanctaphrax]

Here's what I had in mind for a Weapons Power.

Not sure I'd allow these in one of my games. They're designed to make stunts obsolete and I usually frown upon that. Also, I pushed the power level pretty hard. These are likely too good.

I don't think +1/tier is too good, compared to what Speed and Refinement do. But I worry about how it might stack, so that's restricted.

Considered including a surprise attack trapping, but decided against it because the Power already does so many things.

Generally speaking, I prefer zone attacks to spray attacks. Simpler, cleaner, and more effective in play.

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INHUMAN SKILL [-2]
Description:
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
Master Of War. Add 1 to your Weapons skill for attacking and defending. Your Weapons attacks inflict +1 stress. These bonuses do not stack with stunts or with True Aim.
Deflect Arrows. As long as you are armed, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against ranged attacks with arrows, thrown weapons, and other physical projectiles that are slow enough to see.
Strike Like The Wind. You may make spray attacks with your Weapons skill. You never suffer a -1 penalty from drawing a weapon as a supplemental action.
Attuned To The Weapon. Your Weapons skill is treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying other skills.

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SUPERNATURAL SKILL [-4]
Description:
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
Lord Of War. Add 2 to your Weapons skill for attacking and defending. Your Weapons attacks inflict +2 stress. These bonuses do not stack with stunts or with True Aim.
Parry Everything. As long as you are armed, you may use your Weapons skill to defend against any attack that could be dodged with Athletics.
Strike Like Lightning. You may make spray attacks and zone-wide attacks with your Weapons skill. You never suffer a -1 penalty from drawing a weapon as a supplemental action. You don't hurt yourself when attacking your own zone.
One With The Weapon. Your Weapons skill is treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying other skills. Your other skills are treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying your Weapons skill.

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MYTHIC SKILL [-6]
Description:
Skills Affected: Weapons.
Effects:
God Of War. Add 3 to your Weapons skill for attacking and defending. Your Weapons attacks inflict +3 stress. These bonuses do not stack with stunts or with True Aim.
Perfect Defence. You may use your Weapons skill to defend against any attack that could be dodged with Athletics.
Strike Like The Sunlight. You may make spray attacks and zone-wide attacks with your Weapons skill. You never suffer a -1 penalty from drawing a weapon as a supplemental action. You may choose which characters to affect when attacking a zone, and when you combine a zone attack with a supplemental move you may attack every zone that you move through.
Living Weapon. Your Weapons skill is treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying other skills. Your other skills are treated as infinite for the purpose of modifying your Weapons skill. As long as you are alive, weapons that you are wielding cannot break and you cannot be disarmed against your will. You may attack unarmed with your Weapons skill.

[cowardlylion]

Mythic skill + Speed powers seem a little OP attacking everyone you want in four zones is basically equivalent to attacking every enemy in most combats.

[Hick Jr]

Hmm. I like those Skill powers, Sanctaphrax. I think the power level balances out once you get past the Inhuman tier, which is a gigantic value and mimics like four stunts. I'd definitely take Mythic Skill on a character.

*begins furious statblocking*

[Taran]

I don't like free zone wide attacks.

One of my players took the natural weapons upgrade to do zone wide and started obliterating everything.  There should be a-2 for zone attacks, the same way spells need to add 2 shifts imo.

That write up looks a lot like the natural weapons write up, actually.  Just with lots of upgrades: zone wide; potent, etc...

Mythic skill + Speed powers seem a little OP attacking everyone you want in four zones is basically equivalent to attacking every enemy in most combats.

There's this too.

With 8 refresh you are attacking a every enemy in at least 2 zones with a +8, weapon 6 sword, with no drawback.  And it can be done unlimited times...and you can't be disarmed.

[Sanctaphrax]

Hmm. I like those Skill powers, Sanctaphrax. I think the power level balances out once you get past the Inhuman tier, which is a gigantic value and mimics like four stunts. I'd definitely take Mythic Skill on a character.

*begins furious statblocking*

Glad you like them. The Inhuman tier is significantly more than 4 stunts, though.

Mythic skill + Speed powers seem a little OP attacking everyone you want in four zones is basically equivalent to attacking every enemy in most combats.

I'm surprised that that's the part people are objecting to. In my experience being able to hit two zones isn't much better than being able to hit one...wizards in my games hardly ever fire off multi-zone spells.

Really, I threw that in as an afterthought when I realized that otherwise taking Speed and Skill together was counterproductive. An Athletics defence boost doesn't play well with a Weapons defence boost. At the lower Skill levels you still need Athletics to dodge from time to time, but when you hit Mythic Skill...

I'm more nervous about the +1/+2/+3 effect.

I don't like free zone wide attacks.

One of my players took the natural weapons upgrade to do zone wide and started obliterating everything.  There should be a-2 for zone attacks, the same way spells need to add 2 shifts imo.

These zone attacks aren't free. They cost Refresh.

I used to have effects like this one inflict a -2 penalty to hit, but they were too weak. A weapon rating penalty like the one evocation uses might be better, but in my experience the area effects have been fair.

Really surprised that you found a character with Area Weaponry to be overpowered. I've found it worthwhile, but...it doesn't really compare to what Evocation can do for the same price. And of course it's a lot of Refresh to duplicate a 0-Refresh mundane grenade. Was it a low-optimization game or something?

That write up looks a lot like the natural weapons write up, actually.  Just with lots of upgrades: zone wide; potent, etc...

That's probably because I wrote both. My Power writing style is a bit same-y, I'm afraid, since I really want to be clear.

With 8 refresh you are attacking a every enemy in at least 2 zones with a +8, weapon 6 sword, with no drawback.  And it can be done unlimited times...and you can't be disarmed.

Yeah, I think it might be overpowered. Not because you can hit two zones, but because you can toss out unlimited Legendary weapon 6 attacks with no drawback. And also because you have Legendary defence while you do it.

The immunity to disarming, incidentally, doesn't seem terribly valuable to me. Opponents can always just throw some other maneuver at you that's equally effective.

[Hick Jr]

If you built an optimized swordsman-type character with Mythic Skill, and a wizard-type character, spending the exact same amount of Refresh, the wizard brutally curb-stomps the warrior. Every time.

Mythic Skill is powerful, but so is Mythic anything.

[Sanctaphrax]

Various thoughts with little connection to each other:

1. I dunno about that. I can see a lot of scenarios where the swordsman wins. But it depends on the Refresh level, how far away the fighters start, and the way each character is built.

2. Of course, duels generally ignore a lot of important stuff. Like a spellcaster's ritual casting, the flexibility of magic, a swordsman's greater skill selection, and a swordsman's ability to fight more-or-less forever.

3. In retrospect, it would probably be appropriate for the Weapons boosts to affect maneuvers and blocks. Don't want to make the Power stronger, but it feels weird.

4. If you had the job of altering the Skill Powers until you felt they were fair, what changes would you make? Would you make any?

5. If any of you are going to allow Powers like these in your game, please think about the effect they have on the viability of Stunts and whether you're okay with that.

6. Sorry about the derail, PirateJack.