Enchanted Item questions

[Cadd]

That...is actually a really good idea... Mechanically an IoP-ish item (with the custom version of the rebates rather than the RAW ones), with relevant powers and a large-ish rebate due to rarity of availability... It'll have to wait a bit for my little wizard, as he's strapped for refresh (as is to be expected), but it might very well fit the bill... Thanks! I simply needed to start looking outside the box where the idea started...

Now to start looking at what might be fitting to wrap up in it...

On enchanted items and frequency in general though - would the possibility of reversing the "trade Power for Uses" be very broken if allowed only once? That is - the item is normally say Power 5, 1 use/session; turn it into Power 6, use once every two sessions? As a one-off trade only? It'd act wonky with Frequency specialisations/foci, but for now let's assume that's non-existent.

[Taran]

Solution!

Thaumaturgy!

Make an aspect with a duration of, say 1year.  Every milestone, do another ritual to create another aspect.

Each aspect is fragile, so if it is used it goes away...but if you don't use it, you'll have an additional aspect to tag.  Just specify that all aspects must be tagged at once or have the shifts build up for a more powerful maneuver.

Ithere'd be some possibilities for compels, like having piles of power building up around you and things being hexed etc...

[Cadd]

Also an interesting idea, definitely... Though that does feel a bit more power-gaming-y. Of course, there is the steady stream of complications it would create to make the story interesting...


On the idea of using Limitation - How much of a limitation would you say "Usable for one scene (maaaaybe-two-consecutive-if-it-makes-for-extra-fun-complications) per story" is:
Severe - A limitation is severe if it makes the attached Powers significantly less useful and reliable in almost every session.
Extreme - A limitation is extreme if getting to use the attached Powers is a special occasion.

I guess it sort of depends on how many sessions "a story" usually are.
Hang on - if I pick powers connected to it right, maybe it can even be fluid between stories depending on how long the story is!
Basically, since it's going to count as one of those two (50% rebate or 75% rebate), I can set the "final" price as -1 Refresh (at least to start with) and if it's a relatively short story, it might "only" count as a Severe limitation, thus that item contains 2 refresh worth of powers, while if it's a long story it'll be an Extreme limitation and thus contain 4 refresh worth!
The rationale for the difference is that during a longer story it will have had "more time to save back energy and life force".

[Taran]

Also an interesting idea, definitely... Though that does feel a bit more power-gaming-y. Of course, there is the steady stream of complications it would create to make the story interesting...

It's not powergamy...here's why:

1. It's using existing rules
2. That's what thaumaturgy is for...and, I think, most wizards with thaumaturgy have an aspect or two they can tag in an emergency.
3. It's EXACTLY what you want it to do
4. It's a one-shot thing.  Even if it's a 10 shift maneuver...that 10 shift maneuver took you 5 milestones to build.  It caused some complications in the mean-time...

You could attune it to an item for extra fun...so if someone else gets it, they can tag it or just keep you from using it.

[Sanctaphrax]

"Powergamy" doesn't have an agreed-upon meaning, so nothing can really be it or not be it.

Solution!

Thaumaturgy!

Make an aspect with a duration of, say 1year.  Every milestone, do another ritual to create another aspect.

Each aspect is fragile, so if it is used it goes away...but if you don't use it, you'll have an additional aspect to tag.  Just specify that all aspects must be tagged at once or have the shifts build up for a more powerful maneuver.

I don't think this would work. Tags have to be used quickly, otherwise they disappear.

On the idea of using Limitation - How much of a limitation would you say "Usable for one scene (maaaaybe-two-consecutive-if-it-makes-for-extra-fun-complications) per story" is:
Severe - A limitation is severe if it makes the attached Powers significantly less useful and reliable in almost every session.
Extreme - A limitation is extreme if getting to use the attached Powers is a special occasion.

I guess it sort of depends on how many sessions "a story" usually are.
Hang on - if I pick powers connected to it right, maybe it can even be fluid between stories depending on how long the story is!
Basically, since it's going to count as one of those two (50% rebate or 75% rebate), I can set the "final" price as -1 Refresh (at least to start with) and if it's a relatively short story, it might "only" count as a Severe limitation, thus that item contains 2 refresh worth of powers, while if it's a long story it'll be an Extreme limitation and thus contain 4 refresh worth!
The rationale for the difference is that during a longer story it will have had "more time to save back energy and life force".

I'm a little dubious about the idea of a Power balanced over multiple sessions. DFRPG is mostly balanced session-by-session.

But if you really want to do it, a Limitation is probably a decent approach. And yes, the value would depend on the situation. And maybe even on the Powers attached...some Powers are situational enough that you wouldn't want to use them all that often. I'd normally call such a Limitation extreme, but it would definitely depend.

[Taran]

I don't think this would work. Tags have to be used quickly, otherwise they disappear.

I don't agree.  Skills like contacts, investigation and burglary are meant to create tags used for later.   Besides, there's duration on thaumaturgy for a reason.  Also, if he's going to go through all the trouble of inventing a power, why not just use a power that already exists and house-rule the tags lasting longer.  It seems way easier.  If you want it represented by refresh, call it a stunt and be done.

rituals can be as in-depth or "hand-wavy" as the GM likes.  If adding power to the maneuver every milestone seems too powerful make it "every 3rd minor milestone, every 2nd significant and every Major Milestone."  Or whatever.  In this way, it's going to be as game breaking as the GM allows since the GM determines milestones.

I'm looking at it this way:  a 10-shift maneuver useable once after 5 milestones is not overpowered when you consider most wizards can throw together a 10 shift maneuver with a few declarations and a fairly quick ritual.

[Sanctaphrax]

Assessments are one thing, rituals are another.

I'm away from my book right now, but if I recall correctly YS is quite clear. Ritual tags don't just hang around.

Check page 265, I think that's the relevant passage.

[Taran]

Found it:

Maneuvers last one scene by default but those aspects can have duration put on them so they last longer - in fact it specifically uses an example to point out that aspects can be extended...I'll highlight.

system terms that already have a set duration—
maneuvers and stress don’t last beyond a scene,
and consequences remain until enough time has
passed that recovery is possible.
It is possible to set up spells that last a great
deal longer by adding complexity. You can choose
to move the spell’s duration up one step on the
time chart (page 315) starting from an appropriate
default and adding one to the complexity
for every step up you want to go. So a curse that
acts as a maneuver to put Bad Luck on a target
might start from “15 minutes” (about the length
of that particular scene), and you could make it
last all day by adding five shifts of complexity to
the spell. Duration can be applied to a spell in a
flexible sense—how long the energies will hang
around until triggered, how long a particular
effect will last, and so on.

In any case, I wasn't suggesting the aspect last for days.  I was suggesting he have the aspect be available for days and only relevant when tagged.  Once tagged/invoked, it'd last the scene, then go away.

So here's how I'd do it...then I'll stop arguing the point.

I'd let you start with your basic Lore cap(as if you did a ritual with a complexity under your Lore).  3 shifts to a maneuver, the rest to duration.
Every milestone, I'd get the player to do a couple of declarations to boost the complexity.  Basically, reinforcing and making the spell more powerful and last longer.   
Every declaration has to make sense for the spell as the wizard is building up and storing more energy.  So, in the long run, it's going to be harder to justify making the spell more powerful.

You tag it for a one-shot use.  So it'd be an aspect of "stored power" which could be tagged for whatever is appropriate.  That aspect could be compelled.

I think it's well within the realm of thaum/ritual.

PS.  Good call on the page number!

[Sanctaphrax]

It's not the Aspect duration that's the problem. It's the tag duration. You can't just have the tag floating around waiting to be used for all that time.

That's part of the standard rules for tags, which are ignored only by assessments.

[Taran]

Where does it say that?  You get the tag on any aspect you create.  It's only on fragile aspects that you have to use the tag immediately.

[Cadd]

A fragile aspect just means the aspect itself goes away after tagging, the timeframe for a tag is the same. Page 106 says that tags should be used "almost immediately" after being brought into play, at latest the same scene. "Some assessments are an exception to this time limit".

[Taran]

This is what I'm suggesting.  The maneuver triggers at the right time, allowing a tag in the scene it triggers.

(click to show/hide)

Because temporary aspects from maneuvers
are transient, these sorts of spells tend to be
very carefully timed or triggered so the aspect
or effect manifests when it’s needed (e.g., “I’ll
arrange it so he Can’t Think Straight right
at the moment he steps on stage”). For a more
lasting effect, it’s time to look at contests and
conflicts.
If the intent is to create a temporary aspect
that can be tagged more than once (remember
that normally you’d only get the benefit of the
tag once and have to invoke after that), simply
chain two or more maneuvers together in the
same spell, each inflicting the same aspect or a
similar variant. In other words, if you want to
take advantage of two tags against a target of
Good Conviction, you’ll need to set up two
maneuvers, for a minimum complexity of 6 (3
for each, as per above). As wizards are usually
low on fate points, this option allows you a little
more mileage without having to worry about
impacting your fate point budget.

[Tedronai]

I'm not clear how one would 'time a maneuver carefully' to be 'available in an emergency' short of including some variation of Wards' contingent variables (which are rather strict).

[Taran]

I would design it as a divination or attach it to one.

Edit:  have your enchanted item be the trigger for the ritual.  Useable 1/session, as normal.  It becomes the catalyst and link for the ritual which is a bunch of saved up power (as I described earlier).  Once you trigger, the enchanted item slot is useless until you do another ritual.  (or it just defaults to a normal maneuver - once it recharges in the next session)

Or you could custom build a new power from scratch.  I'm just making suggestions.  I thought it might be easier and save you some refresh.

[Cadd]

Thansk for all the ideas an input everyone! I've decided for now to go with a regular aspect-granting enchanted item - reshuffling a little bit will get me a once per session item granting two aspects for a cost-to-effect ratio I'm ok with "holding back" uses of.

 In the longer run I'm looking into designing a power (or choosing a mix of powers) to be held in an item using Limitation to reflect the recharge time of the item.
That'll give me some time to figure out more precisely what I want the "rush of stored lifeforce" to actually do. I'm currently thinking of a tweaked and "specialized recovery-version, but whatever I cook up I'll bring it back to the boards for review - you people have a lot better grasp of what's balanced and not than I have, and my GM is even newer to GMing than I am, so she's grateful for the additional viewpoints from here!