Enchanted Item questions

[blackstaff67]

Thank you for pointing out that "hole", because I hadn't really made the connection to high amount of tool use for goldsmithing to use of foci in magic. The reason he eschews foci are really two-fold, one out-of-story and one in-story.
The out-of-story reason is that the talented evocators we see don't really seem to use foci a lot. Neither Luccio nor Morgan utilizes them much in the books, and Harry says repeatedly that he uses foci for evocation because he's not good at it. My character is a lot more like Luccio's precision strikes in his natural element.
In-story, he simply never needed foci for Air evocation, wind and lightning both follow his will fairly effortlessly; it's really only Fire that is such a problem. (Mechanically, I've set his Discipline lower than might be expected, but instead he has control bonuses for Air and Spirit, this way Fire is drastically less controlled without his focus)

To him, the magic is the tool; the result is like the jewelry he makes: beautiful and what he aimed for. Using foci is a bit too much "using one tool to be able to use another tool". He also dislikes being dependent on objects to control his magic, objects that can be lost. I'll have to think it over though, because you're right - there is a discrepancy there, so it needs to be sorted out...

For the staff - you're probably right that I'm making it a bit bigger than needed; a presence or intimidation maneuver is probably right for it, solidifying it as something that make others take him seriously.


Addendum: After thinking a bit about it, I've come to the following conclusion:
In goldsmithing, he uses his tools, to shape the raw materials (precious metals) into his desired result (jewelry).
In his arcane life, he uses his tools (magic), to shape the raw materials (current reality) into his desired result (the final effect of the magic).
Hubris? Oh not at all!

The fact that fire is so difficult for him, and that he has to use tools there, shines a spotlight on the flaws in his logic in disdaining foci; so far this just makes him dislike both fire magic and foci more, but as he matures a bit he might come around to re-evaluate his stance.

Does this seem a bit more consistent? It's sort of moving the out-of-game inconsistency into the psyche of the character instead, setting up future development.

Have you considered instead of trappings and stunts, to take a theme for your Thaumaturgy?  Perhaps Geomancer or the like (Aurumancer, anyone?).  That can certainly justify your goldsmithing abilities while staying in character, just as my own PC uses his Chloromancy to make fine woodwind musical instruments.

[Cadd]

Interesting concept, and might very well be a future specialization for him; but as it stands he uses mundane tools and skills for his goldsmithing (spent a couple years in schooling for it, and is still in a part-time apprenticeship to a non-magical but in-the-know goldsmith).

It'll be absolutely awesome when he figures out his talent for electricity and lightning can translate over into magnetism and manipulating metals and earth :p

[Cadd]

I'll just revive this thread, as it's for an enchanted item, and based on a Potion in the book.
I kind of want to do something like the Silver Bear belt buckle Harry uses in Blood Rites. As I remember it, it's actually pretty similar (at least in theme) to the Stimulant "super-coffee" potion from Fool Moon, only with fewer compels

I figured I'd just grab the Stimulant potion, re-flavor it a touch, and use it as an enchanted item instead. Only... Am I the only one who thinks that potion looks a bit strong for only 4 shifts?
It suppresses 4 shifts of consequences (they're still there but can't be "interacted" with), and also reduces casting stress by one, but not below 1 (basically giving you a +1 Power modification stacking with Specializations and Foci).

I just can't see what the math is supposed to be here - I can definitely see the suppressing as a 4 shift effect (1 shift of effect for each shift of consequence suppressed), but essentially adding +1 to your Conviction for spellcasting purposes should "cost" a few shifts of effect aswell right?

Anyway - for an item that stores away a minor amount of life force to be used in a pinch, would you go for an effect along the lines of the Stimulant potion, or rather something like placing an Aspect or two for free tags representing that "boost of energy"?

[Tedronai]

You can't seem to see the math because frankly, it's not there.  The example spells, items, and often characters in the books frequently go beyond (or around, or through) what would otherwise be inconvenient rules preventing them from achieving the effect they desire.
The result is that you get evocation spells applying aspects to a zone (or even everyone in a zone) or initiating grapples, potions giving armour vs casting stress, and other things that the rules simply don't allow.

[Cadd]

Yeah, there are several examples that are wonky, which is sort of why I when here to ask around

However, both of those functions are interesting. Temporarily boosting your Power seems a little off in regards to other effects, as there are very few "+X bonus to action Y" effects in the rest of the magic system, but suppressing consequences seem like a pretty nifty effect and feels completely ok. Should that perhaps be allowed at a 1:1 ratio?

Would an item that "banks" a tiny amount of life force (like the rings store back kinetic energy) be best handled as something like the above, or as aspects to be tagged?

I want the effect to be a once-per-session* pick-me-up, sort of second wind effect. Suppressing some amount of consequences and add an aspect to be tagged, maybe?

*Actually, really more like a once-per-story, but I don't really know how to do that by the rules except just choose to not use it more than that...

[Tedronai]

Enchanted Items can't actually give you '+X to action Y' effects (again, despite what the printed examples might suggest).  What they can do is replace the roll entirely with the strength of the enchantment.
(ex. you could have a strength:10 potion which allows you to take an Athletics sprint action as if you had rolls a total of 10, and fluff that potion as temporarily transforming the imbiber into the wind itself; good for getting to relative safety when ambushed by a nasty toad-demon)

Temporarily boosting your powers is also permitted within the rules by way of the Temporary Powers mechanics.

An invoke-for-effect of an appropriate aspect might be able to temporarily suppress the ability of another aspect to be invoked or compelled.  That's the most direct RAW mechanism by which I could see a spell completely suppressing a Consequence for whatever duration.  I'd talk it over with the group, though, because while it's not quite as powerful as actually healing the consequence (the slot is still occupied, and the spell will probably wear off before the consequence heals on its own unless there's a Recovery power involved) it is still quite powerful, and a savvy player could easily get quite a lot of 'bang for their buck' if it's allowed to apply to larger Consequences with no additional cost.
On the less reaching side of things, simply having a spell that applies an aspect (or, for a ritual or enchanted item, possibly more than one aspect) related to exceptional health, vitality, life force, etc, and then using the resulting tag(s) and subsequent conventional invokes to counteract any invokes (basically just going point-for-point) and argue (/negotiate) the narrative (in)appropriateness of Compels related to a Consequence.

[Cadd]

So, just looking at spell effects - what could be a good complexity for suppressing a decently narrow type of consequence? Similar to what we see a few times in the books - Lash helping him block pain (in PG I think?), and his not feeling pain or fatigue in CD.

Nothing as wide as "Physical consequences", but more narrow like "Pain-related" or "Fatigue/Exhaustion"? Is 1 shift / stress-value of consequences to cheap? 2 shifts? That would make it a 4 shift effect to suppress a Mild and an 8 shift to suppress a Moderate.


Unrelated to suppressing - I had an idea about the kind of Enchanted Item I want to make. It is definitely not within the RAW, and not even the wonky examples, but I want input on how it could be made to not be gamebreaking.

A Power 3 item can create one frail aspect on the user, usable once per session.
What do you think about an item that gives one frail life-force themed aspect per Milestone passed since its last use. Or only one aspect, but one tag/milestone. It would equal a Power 3 item if used each session, but would essentially "store" unspent uses.
Probably some kind of maximum number of aspects/tags, and if producing several different aspects (rather than one with several tags) they of course have to be predefined, including the order (if 2 aspects they are A and B; if 4 aspects then A, B, C and D; if only 1 then just A).
The benefit with multiple Aspects would probably be that they can be less "all purpose" - most could probably be used for Power boost in Evocation, but maybe only one or two could be spent on Control. Also several different aspects that could potentially be compelled - it can't be easy to keep your cool in that kind of energy rush!

I can't really find anything in the game except consequences that has a intended use-rate of less than once per session. I want the effect to be something along the power level of a Severe consequence, with a similar time frame for use - once per scenario if even that, and a real whollop of an effect then.

[Taran]

So, just looking at spell effects - what could be a good complexity for suppressing a decently narrow type of consequence? Similar to what we see a few times in the books - Lash helping him block pain (in PG I think?), and his not feeling pain or fatigue in CD.

Nothing as wide as "Physical consequences", but more narrow like "Pain-related" or "Fatigue/Exhaustion"? Is 1 shift / stress-value of consequences to cheap? 2 shifts? That would make it a 4 shift effect to suppress a Mild and an 8 shift to suppress a Moderate.

I think this would be a simple (counter-)maneuver.  So, I'd say, at least 3 shifts of power to create the maneuver. I'd say, at least 3 shifts for each consequence you want to "reverse-invoke".  So you'd make a separate "pain-killing" maneuver to tag for each consequence.  If someone wants to tag/invoke the consequence, they have to do a maneuver to beat the spell.   This way, higher maneuvers matter.

I can't comment on the second part of your question...it seems wonky...

Edit:  how about this:  Use your enchanted items to have multiple uses/sessions.  At milestones, you can trade out uses/session for power - but only uses that you haven't used, so that your item gradually gets stronger if you don't use it but you can use it less often.  It's mostly just fluff since you're allowed to change your enchanted items around at milestones.

[Cadd]

I'm not entirely sure how you suggest the trading-in to work; are you suggesting something like the item gaining one shift of power per unspent use each milestone? So "just" a slower growth than my idea?

My idea is essentially a growth of 3 shifts of power (one frail aspect) per session/minor milestone, reset down to 0 upon use.
So I have it but don't use if for two sessions. In the third session I use it (getting three aspects) and I can't use it at all for the rest of that session. In the fourth session it has regained one "charge" and I use it again, this time only getting one aspect.

Also - items can't be changed each milestone, only each Significant and Major milestone.

[Taran]

Please quote page...I couldn't find it under milestones.

I always figured you could switch out enchanted items when you had any "down time".  Whether that was a milestone or no.

I'm not sure how to do that item.  It sounds like a power.

[Cadd]

It's under Significant Milestone:

When a significant milestone occurs, your
character gets all of the following:

• One additional skill rank.
• One of the benefits of a minor milestone.
• Spellcasters may reconfigure their focus
  and enchanted items and slots.

Personally, I wouldn't allow any significant reshuffling if there's a "mid-story" Significant milestone, but any proper downtime is enough no matter the last milestone before; I figure this is just aiming for something like that... I'm also curious that I can't find any info on when you can swap Rote spells, but that's beside the point.

Re: the item
Ah well, I guess I might have to shelve the idea for a while...

[Taran]

I have the beta ed. of YS so it isn't listed.

I let Rotes change at any milestone, as long as it makes sense narratively.  In fact, with enough down-time, even without a milestone, I'd allow a rote reshuffle.  I kind of feel that down-time and milestones go hand in hand.  When you have down-time it's because you just finished "doing stuff" and you ended the "doing stuff" with some kind of milestone.

In any case, don't shelf the idea.  I'm sure someone else might have a good suggestion...it just happens that I don't 

[Haru]

My idea is essentially a growth of 3 shifts of power (one frail aspect) per session/minor milestone, reset down to 0 upon use.
So I have it but don't use if for two sessions. In the third session I use it (getting three aspects) and I can't use it at all for the rest of that session. In the fourth session it has regained one "charge" and I use it again, this time only getting one aspect.

I could see something that's sort of along these lines, albeit not exactly, if you go for a potion. A potion effect can be enhanced by invoking aspects, but it can't be above twice your lore. So if you have potion slots or actual potions left when your items recharge, you could houserule that you can pour old potion effects into new ones and use the +2 from the aspect to increase the new potions effect.

But that would pretty much be the limit of what I would allow. But I don't think I would allow even that. Enchanted items (as much as anything the character has or can do) are there to be used, not stored. Use them or lose them.

[Cadd]

Well, I want to use it - just like Harry uses the silver bear belt buckle in Blood Rites when he's about to fight the BCVs. I want something to be used once per scenario/story with a fairly big effect. Not a nuke, but not firecracker either.

Of course I can make an item with 1 use per session and whatever power I can scrunch up with adding slots and such and just use it only once per story, but at that point I'm really starting to feel that I actively cripple my character. The item feels like something my character would make (a sort of "rainy day" insurance), but I could get a lot more bang for my buck if I instead make something that has a narratively has a shorter recharge so I can actually use it most sessions.

Part of the "problem" here might be that my group (or in this case, just my GM and I as this particular idea is for a one-player game) tends to run stories a fair bit longer than the 2 or 3 sessions YS seems to go for. It's not uncommon for a story to be six or eight sessions long, and making an item that can be used (and useful) 2 out of 3 sessions but only using it once feels a lot less wasteful than using it once in 6 sessions when it could be (mechanically) used and useful in 4 of them.

So, to summarize:
It bugs me that I can make an item with a default "frequency of use" and take a minor hit to its strength to drastically increase its frequency (thereby decreasing the "opportunity cost" of using the item), but if I want to lower its intended frequency of use (increasing the opportunity cost), I can't actually get anything for that.

I'm looking for something that can be useful on the same timescale as a Severe consequence. That is clearly a higher opportunity cost than enchanted items has in the rules, both as written and (I think) as intended. Maybe enchanted items is not the way to go, mechanically - that's just where I was when I got the idea.

[Tedronai]

So, to summarize:
It bugs me that I can make an item with a default "frequency of use" and take a minor hit to its strength to drastically increase its frequency (thereby decreasing the "opportunity cost" of using the item), but if I want to lower its intended frequency of use (increasing the opportunity cost), I can't actually get anything for that.

I'm looking for something that can be useful on the same timescale as a Severe consequence. That is clearly a higher opportunity cost than enchanted items has in the rules, both as written and (I think) as intended. Maybe enchanted items is not the way to go, mechanically - that's just where I was when I got the idea.

I recommend an adaptation of the Limitation rebate power developed on these boards.
My mind isn't working as well as it should at the moment, but that's where I would start with something like this.