Limits on Phenomenal Cosmic Powers

[MacPhoenix]

In writing for myself (though publishing might be cool one day)  I have found I love to give my heroes "the golden gun"
When it comes to ability, powers, and or badassery. Is the only way to limit
such power: flaws, progressive upgrades, and or one up bad guys? I know the
real reason is my inability to create flaws/ limits.

This is more about writing techniques than creative ideas!

[The Deposed King]

In writing for myself (though publishing might be cool one day)  I have found I love to give my heroes "the golden gun"
When it comes to ability, powers, and or badassery. Is the only way to limit
such power: flaws, progressive upgrades, and or one up bad guys? I know the
real reason is my inability to create flaws/ limits.

This is more about writing techniques than creative ideas!

Up until Book three of Spineward Sectors series the Hero pretty much ran the tables.  He fought, he bled, he got knocked around to within an inch of his life but always managed to gut out a win.  Coming back each time slightly or more than slightly stronger than before.

But in Book 3 things changed for the MC.  He still went in with his usual MO.  He charged hard, doubled downed on his bets, made all his cool plans and when those were disrupted he lead with his gut.  Alas this time he couldn't simply gut it out and the bad guys gunned him down, took his Flag ship, threw him in the brig after realizing he was still alive and not dead as originally expected after being shot in the neck.  They then proceeded to abaondon the rest of his heavily outnumbered followers on outlaw station literally crawling with pirates.

Things couldn't seem to get much worse for our hero, and in book four he was dragged up before the the government to be judged for his crimes (tryin to protect the border worlds without official government sanction, at least in their eyes).

I killed off more than a few primary secondary characters, left the audience questioning the survival of the MC and placed him in the power of his enemies.

And that's how I answered the Golden Gun conundrum.  He goes in like its any other day and he's going to kick ass and take names.  And instead of gutting out the win against long odds, the odds catch up to him and he looses just about everything.

He can still rebuild and come back better than ever when his surviving crew come to bust him out.  But no one is crying, oh god, another gimme for the MC, as usual he simply cannot lose.  Phenominal cosmic whatever (eye roll).

In this case he can and has lost.  So success is not a guarantee.

But do it however you want, there are may roads to rome.



The Deposed King

[MacPhoenix]

I thank you for your entish reply.

[MacPhoenix]

Another conundrum is does jam packing an mc with abilities ruin his ability to connect with an audience or just make it harder to manage?

[The Deposed King]

Another conundrum is does jam packing an mc with abilities ruin his ability to connect with an audience or just make it harder to manage?

Its harder to manage because.... think of it like Dragon Ball Z.  How many times can you defeat the Ultimate threat in the Universe before the more discerning viewer is rolling their eyes?

To my mind its always better if the Hero has to work for it.  The other thing I would add is look at the Dresden Series?  Harry keeps improving his skills and powers doesn't he?  Yet he's never the coolest, baddest or most powerful.  He does improve but either his buffs come with curses or he's had to spend several books as a yoda like instructor honing his skills by instruction of the Padawan.

It seems to me that most authors want to take all the Harry Dresden progression and shove it into one book.  Making their character not just a super hero (because those guys are essentially one trick phenomienal ponies) but a multi-powered, ever more powerful Super Hero.




The Deposed King

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Its harder to manage because.... think of it like Dragon Ball Z.  How many times can you defeat the Ultimate threat in the Universe before the more discerning viewer is rolling their eyes?

That's a failure mode, sure.

For a really good success in this direction, I recommend Mike Carey's Lucifer, which is a 75-episode comic centring on the second most powereful being in creation; succeeds by a combination of having a great supporting cast, and by characterisation of Lucifer as someone with so much pride that he will always play your game by your rules (and win anyway).

[MacPhoenix]

So a good hero has power sure, but that is ooh and aww. A great hero is displayed with the humanity of the character showing despite or because of the power.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

So a good hero has power sure, but that is ooh and aww. A great hero is displayed with the humanity of the character showing despite or because of the power.

Mm. "Humanity" in and of itself is to my mind overrated, if only because what people actually mean by it rather too often seems to boil down to "having the same predictably normative reactions when pushed hard enough" rather than "actually being a credible individual human".

[MacPhoenix]

I guess I should really say essence rather than humanity. However, humanity to me means the compassionate ability of an individual to care for all other individuals as one's self.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I guess I should really say essence rather than humanity. However, humanity to me means the compassionate ability of an individual to care for all other individuals as one's self.

I'd be inclined to say that the popularity of shows like Sherlock makes it clear that you can write an interesting and compelling protagonist with little to none of that ability.  (Don't get me started about what season 3 does in that regard.)

[MacPhoenix]

I'd be inclined to say that the popularity of shows like Sherlock makes it clear that you can write an interesting and compelling protagonist with little to none of that ability.  (Don't get me started about what season 3 does in that regard.)

Is that the bbc version because I am about to get the first season on DVD from Netflix?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Is that the bbc version because I am about to get the first season on DVD from Netflix?

That's the one I meant, yes.  I hope you enjoy it.

[johnhallow]

One thing I've learned from reading manga is that it doesn't really matter how OP you make your characters as long as you pick antagonists who are actually challenging to them (in their own way).

The mistake Dragonball Z made was to just keep whipping enemies out of nowhere, to the point where it felt ridiculous. You might want to check out Nanatsu No Taizai or Toriko (the latter is kind of cheesy)(okay, super cheesy) for a series where the characters begin ridiculously powerful but you still get that sense of tension. Another example is the Secret Histories series. You've got the Droods with their godly golden armour and the MC gets a gun that never misses and can't run out of ammo... but there's still tension, because there are antagonists who are powerful enough to circumvent these (i.e. doesn't matter if your gun can't miss or run out of bullets if it can't put down the werewolf/infernal creature/other-dimensional monstrosity you're fighting.)

So I don't feel it's so much a matter of /limits/ as a matter of relative threat. You just have to be more inventive when coming up with enemies, though it's good to hint at potential enemies from the get-go so it doesn't feel like you're pulling these things out of your ass 

The manga One Piece does this well -- we get the major factions (and World Powers) from the start, and when badasses show up during the course of the series it really doesn't feel like an asspull, because we already knew that all these powerful people wayyy out of the heroes' league exist out there (even if we'd forgotten).

Just draw them out as needed 

[The Deposed King]

One thing I've learned from reading manga is that it doesn't really matter how OP you make your characters as long as you pick antagonists who are actually challenging to them (in their own way).

The mistake Dragonball Z made was to just keep whipping enemies out of nowhere, to the point where it felt ridiculous. You might want to check out Nanatsu No Taizai or Toriko (the latter is kind of cheesy)(okay, super cheesy) for a series where the characters begin ridiculously powerful but you still get that sense of tension. Another example is the Secret Histories series. You've got the Droods with their godly golden armour and the MC gets a gun that never misses and can't run out of ammo... but there's still tension, because there are antagonists who are powerful enough to circumvent these (i.e. doesn't matter if your gun can't miss or run out of bullets if it can't put down the werewolf/infernal creature/other-dimensional monstrosity you're fighting.)

So I don't feel it's so much a matter of /limits/ as a matter of relative threat. You just have to be more inventive when coming up with enemies, though it's good to hint at potential enemies from the get-go so it doesn't feel like you're pulling these things out of your ass 

The manga One Piece does this well -- we get the major factions (and World Powers) from the start, and when badasses show up during the course of the series it really doesn't feel like an asspull, because we already knew that all these powerful people wayyy out of the heroes' league exist out there (even if we'd forgotten).

Just draw them out as needed 

Constant threat and tension are a big part of it and being internally consistent another.  Personally I disagree with the constant power bumps but do I know that lots of people like that sort of thing so I can't say you're wrong.  Just like lots of people want a sci-fi that they can sit down and watch and not have to concern themselves about whether or not they paid attention to the last couple episodes.

They want it serial.  They want it so they can sit down and immerse themselves without all that extra brain straining work.  They just want to have a fun time.

Kind of the antithesis of what I like but I'm not so egocentric as to claim no one else does thus making it wrong.





The Deposed King

[johnhallow]

Yeah, I'm guilty of being one of those sit down and soak it in people, haha

But I do know where you're coming from; a lot of the time the more involved stuff is incredibly rewarding