Author Topic: Stats For Gods  (Read 23098 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Stats For Gods
« on: January 18, 2014, 09:05:06 PM »
Recent discussion in the Worm thread reminded me of an old project of mine: writing stats for THE GODS THEMSELVES!

Yes, the capslock is necessary.

Anyway, I think this is a good time to actually finish that project. Once I'm done, I'd like to have a God Template that can be used in a similar way to the Templates in YS...not that I actually expect anyone to play a god. As a proof-of-concept, I'll try using that Template to write up Mab and Mother Winter.

Way I see it, there are seven main things a god needs.

1. The ability to create miracles within their domain. Which are basically spells, but easier and bigger and better.
2. The ability to crush any mortal like a bug.
3. Nearly-total immunity to attack from mortals.
4. Awareness of and knowledge of cosmic stuff.
5. Attunement to their domain, possibly including Intellectus.
6. The ability to empower mortals.
7. A really high power level in general.

Think I'm missing anything?

Next post will begin the actual work.

Offline S1C0

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2014, 10:12:42 PM »
perhaps a dnd style alignment aspect and perhaps mantels of power as an intangible item of power... also symbols of power like Zeus's lightning bolt for more in-depth creation have mutiple mantels so it can have more symbols and power
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2014, 02:41:27 AM »
Before I get into the hard stuff, there are three homebrew Powers that I want to use here: Undying, Immunity, and All Creatures Are Equal Before Me.

These three powers together do a good job of covering point 2 and 3, as long as the god in question has a decent attack.

(click to show/hide)

The issue here is that when two gods fight, the battle will be over way too quickly. One attack and the defending god will be vapour.

Here's my solution:

DIVINE TOUGHNESS [-2/level]
Description: You're ridiculously, insanely, preposterously hard to hurt. Even a god would have trouble wounding you.
Musts: You must have Immunity to all forms of physical and mental attack to take this Power.
Note: You may purchase this Power any number of times. Its effects stack.
Skills Affected: Endurance, Conviction.
Effects:
Divine Toughness. Add 1 point of armour and 2 stress boxes to your physical and mental stress tracks. This protection cannot be negated by anything.

That just about covers points 2 and 3. For point 1, which lets you manipulate reality with miraculous power, I'm thinking something like...

MIRACLES [-12?]
Description: You have the power to rewrite reality through sheer divine power.
Musts: You must define a divine domain for yourself in order to take this Power. You should have an Aspect that is related to this domain, and your domain should be about as broad as the thematics of a Sponsored Magic type.
Skills Affected: Conviction.
Effects:
Minor Miracles. You may cast any evocation or thaumaturgy spell that fits into your divine domain with evocation's speed and methods. Your power and control are equal to your Conviction, and all spells are treated as Rotes for you. It costs no stress for you to cast up to your base power, and you may cast beyond it at the standard cost of 1 stress per shift.
Major Miracles. You may cast rituals that fit into your divine domain. Once you've gathered enough complexity for a given spell, you need only take a single action to cast it in its entirety. You may gather complexity without having a spell in mind to devote it to, and may store shifts of complexity within yourself to devote to rituals as you please. Each day, you automatically gain stored shifts equal to your Conviction.

MIRACULOUS POWER [-2]
Description: You've got a bit of extra power to boost your miracles with.
Musts: You must have the Miracles power in order to take this one.
Note: You may purchase this Power as many times as you like. Its effects stack.
Skills Affected: Conviction.
Effects:
Miraculous Power. Add one to your Conviction skill when using it with Miracles.

Those costs aren't based on anything solid, but these aren't PC powers so that's not a huge deal.

So that's 1-3 more or less covered. I think. Feedback welcome.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2014, 02:47:07 AM »
perhaps a dnd style alignment aspect and perhaps mantels of power as an intangible item of power... also symbols of power like Zeus's lightning bolt for more in-depth creation have mutiple mantels so it can have more symbols and power

I don't like D&D Alignment at all, so I won't be using it.

Mantles and items should have some representation, though. Not sure whether Limitation is enough.

Offline Silverblaze

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 02:51:59 AM »
Gods need one other thing.

Believers.

Metaphysically speaking gods and tulpas are created from the thought and belief of those who see need for them, fear them, revere them, and/or worship them.

This should be tied into their power level.

Why don't Outsiders need believers? 

1) Maybe they have believers.
2) Maybe they are so foreign to us that is yet another rule they break.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 05:11:34 AM »
Yeah, number of worshippers should matter...but stuff that determines how powerful you are is normally handled on a level "above" the character sheet. You can't have a Power that affects how many milestones you get.

I'm thinking that I should create a custom power level for gods. One with a skill cap of Legendary and a skill floor of Good. Maybe it could involve some kind of worship/sacrifice-based power fluctuation.

Any idea on how that could work?

That aside, after some thought I've decided to combine requirements 4-6 in a single Power. They're all connected the common theme of being attuned to a specific aspect of the universe, after all.

DIVINE DOMAIN [-7]
Description: You are closely attuned to some aspect of reality. You are a part of it and it is a part of you.
Musts: You must define a divine domain for yourself in order to take this Power. You should have an Aspect that is related to this domain, and your domain should be about as broad as the thematics of a Sponsored Magic type.
Skills Affected: Alertness, Investigation, Lore, Scholarship.
Effects:
Domain Empowerment. You may draw power from your domain. This allows you to take Sponsor Debt to yourself, which is paid off through ordinary Compels. You may use this Sponsor Debt only to invoke your own Aspects and to fuel your own Stunts and Powers.
Domain Awareness. You may use your Alertness and Investigation skills to perceive events in and changes to your domain. This awareness spans the entire world even if you're in the Nevernever. No matter what your domain is, you can vaguely sense the actions of other gods and Outsiders; being of such importance affect everything that exists.
Domain Knowledge. You may use your knowledge skills to know any conceivable fact about your domain, even if you have no way of knowing it. You never need a library for questions related to your domain and you may add 4 to any skill you use to know about your domain. No matter what your domain is, the deep questions of universal metaphysics are related to it.
Source Of Magic. There exists a Sponsored Magic for your domain. You may take a point of Sponsor Debt or spend a Fate Point whenever a character takes a point of Sponsor Debt to your domain; if you do, transfer that debt to yourself. This lets you use it to Compel the character who took it however you like.
Sponsor To Mortals. By spending a Fate Point or taking a point of Sponsor Debt, you may transform a willing mortal into your Emissary. This gives them Marked By Power, the Sponsored Magic of your Domain, and whatever other Powers the GM deems appropriate. They must pay for them normally. A character thus Sponsored is metaphysically linked to you, and this will sometimes have serious ramifications.
Intellectus [-3]. You automatically succeed at all knowledge rolls and all active sensory rolls related to your domain. As soon as you think the question, the answer appears in your mind.
Extra Benefits [-1]. You gain whatever non-spellcasting-related benefits the Sponsored Magic of your domain provides. At the GM's discretion, this ability may occasionally cost 2 Refresh if those benefits are exceptionally potent.

Eh...not thrilled with this one. But it'll do.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 05:49:38 AM »
Alright, here's the first draft of the final product:

Power Levels:

(click to show/hide)

Template:

(click to show/hide)

Not really confident in this. But it'll do for a first draft.

By the way, what do people think of the possibility of positive-Refresh gods? I wanted to keep the door open so I set the Refresh levels high, but in retrospect that may have been a bad idea.

I'm thinking I might want stronger representation for the power you get from ruling a kingdom like Winter, incidentally. Some kind of minion Power might be suitable...

Anyway, if you have anything to say I want to hear it. Even if you have nothing to say I want to hear it. I've pretty much used up my ideas, I'll need help replenishing them if I want to make this stuff any better.

Offline vultur

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 07:17:41 AM »
That's cool stuff.

But honestly, I don't think you really need all these new Powers. (Sorry.)

I don't like All Creatures Are Equal Before Me and don't think something like that is even remotely a "standard" power for DV gods. The Swords are very special. So I don't think, therefore, Divine Toughness is really needed.

I believe there's already a "do all thaumaturgy as evothaum" custom power somewhere (I might even have written it... I honestly don't remember). I know there's a "one field as evothaum without Sponsored Magic" power. (EDIT: So I'm not really sure Miracles is needed either.)

I have a pretty full writeup of Lea somewhere, and I've been doing some rough working out in my head for how I think Mab would look, and I don't think she really needs any new powers except a "Domain" power... and your Divine Domain looks good for that.

(There are broader questions about gods' power in the NN vs mortal world and how that should be modeled in the game, but those issues aren't unique to gods -- same would apply to any 'ectoplasm body' demon/spirit/summoned creature, though for slightly different reasons.)

---

I think some of that is a difference in our approaches to the rules though. I prefer to use canon powers when at all possible, and use custom powers only for genuinely new effects
(click to show/hide)


Thus I prefer The Catch to Limitation, I prefer to use Physical Immunity costing rather than Immunity costing for most situations, etc.

---
DOUBLE EDIT: I also think that gods in the Dresdenverse tend to retain their "normal" weaknesses, at least if they come from a "type" that has them (Mab flinches from iron, and Jim has said that an ordinary mortal at least theoretically could kill her under the right conditions -- a chance e.g. the Erlking wouldn't). There's also a WoJ that when those cosmic beings enter the mortal world, they become somewhat vulnerable themselves.  So immunity to mortals is I think too much -- it's just that their power and awareness are so great that it's really unlikely for anybody without comparable power to get into a position to harm them.

(Although Mother Winter apparently has iron teeth, so weaknesses may fall away at the really high power levels. Though I think that is more likely evidence she isn't really a fae, or at least not mostly -- maybe her fae mantle is only secondary to being Death or half of Gaia or whatever, pick your favored theory.)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2014, 07:29:11 AM by vultur »

Offline vultur

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 07:47:09 AM »
Gods need one other thing.

Believers.

Metaphysically speaking gods and tulpas are created from the thought and belief of those who see need for them, fear them, revere them, and/or worship them.

I don't think this is true in the Dresdenverse (though it is in many other fantasy works). NN entities (not just gods, the Fae and such also) need mortal knowledge to allow them to act in the mortal world (I don't think it necessarily affects their 'power' in the NN - just their 'leverage' on Earth) ... but knowledge in them as fictional stories seems to be enough (Grimm's Fairy Tales, and Bob's comment in Backup about D&D giving Tiamat that connection).

But Odin doesn't seem to have faded away during the time he was worshipped by essentially no one (between the Christianization of Scandinavia and the rise of modern neopaganism). Knowledge of him as a myth seems to have kept him linked -- though he also has at least one other mantle, so that may be involved too.

I think 'purpose' is more important for god-like entities retaining their power. Odin says in CD that he lost a lot of his when the Jotuns retreated and the Norse gods scattered... not because people stopped worshiping him.

Offline potestas

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 03:54:51 PM »
with cold days I am almost convinced that the power of the Gods is nothing more then mantles and how many they have acquired and strengthen over the years. Collect enough mantles and you become immortal. The winter knight isn't immortal but what if he had several other mantles or powerful enough ones. maybe instead of created god templates create mantle templates

Offline potestas

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 03:56:58 PM »
and remember a bullet to the head will kill a God on Halloween

Offline S1C0

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 04:41:16 PM »
At potestas

Spoiler much?
Vae Victus

Offline narphoenix

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2014, 05:31:44 PM »
At potestas

Spoiler much?

Cold Days has been out for over a year and is in paperback. Those are the dividing lines for "spoilers". So, he's good.
GMing:

Paranet 2250

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Offline potestas

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 06:05:21 PM »
At potestas

Spoiler much?

hey I didn't say who got the bullet to the head

Offline S1C0

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Re: Stats For Gods
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2014, 10:12:52 PM »
True just saying.
Vae Victus