how long does thaumaturgy take

[Sanctaphrax]

The book never really specifies how long thaumaturgy takes. So it's mostly up to the GM.

[potestas]

I've have assumed that if its thaumaturgy and you have all the stuff, that it will at least take one action to set. Its like when Harry pulls out his chalk from his pocket. He has the skill and stuff on him so the ritual wont take much time but he still draws a small circle seals it with blood and uses the links. at most a minute but still time. Plus thaumaturgy last longer, at its weakest till the sun sets or you cross a decent amount of water right??

I am big on travel, I really wouldn't want my wizards just to get in a car and drive, so world walking is going to be the way, plus its cooler. I am assuming the location they pick is the link. Can a wizard punch a hole into the nevernever from anywhere if he has the strength?

[Blk4ce]

I think you have to feed it an extra shift or two to last the whole day.

While on subject, why is Conviction important for thaumaturgy? Just for the extra mild consequence?

[Braincandy]

I think you have to feed it an extra shift or two to last the whole day.

While on subject, why is Conviction important for thaumaturgy? Just for the extra mild consequence?

You still have to feed power into the spell. The higher your Conviction and Discipline the faster you can channel power into it, it helps get those high complexity spell done quickly.

So while it may not be a big deal with Harry's simple tracking spell, if you were trying to get a complexity 6 or higher spell done and time was a factor, those stats would come into play.

[Taran]

I've have assumed that if its thaumaturgy and you have all the stuff, that it will at least take one action to set. Its like when Harry pulls out his chalk from his pocket. He has the skill and stuff on him so the ritual wont take much time but he still draws a small circle seals it with blood and uses the links. at most a minute but still time.

An important thing when it comes to thaumaturgy is the 'story of the spell'.  Maybe you have everything, but you still need to organize it.

Here's a ritual that I did in a pbp to change the colour of a stolen car.  A maneuver with the a complexity under the characters Lore. (it's near the bottom of the post)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39379.msg1964338.html#msg1964338

Plus thaumaturgy last longer, at its weakest till the sun sets or you cross a decent amount of water right??

I think it often depends on narrative.  Things like wards last until morning, while things like temporary powers and scene aspects might only last a scene.  One part of YS says it'll last until sunrise but in another part it says the default duration is 1 scene or "15 minutes" on the time chart.

I'd have to look for the quotes.

I am big on travel, I really wouldn't want my wizards just to get in a car and drive, so world walking is going to be the way, plus its cooler. I am assuming the location they pick is the link. Can a wizard punch a hole into the nevernever from anywhere if he has the strength?

From my reading is most everywhere is 5.  While other places further or closer to the nevernever will have stronger or weaker barriers. 

BUT here's the thing with World walking:  The reason they're called the Ways is because certain locations have resonance to others.  So even if you rip a hole open in a random location, there's no telling where in the nevernever you're going to end up.  Once in the nevernever, you could walk 10 feet, open another portal and be in a random place on the other side of the world.

That's why Harry used specific places to cross over.

He goes to alley 'x', opens a gate, walked half a kilometer down a path in the nevernever, opens up another gate at 'the weird tree', ends up in Tokyo, walks another block to the back alley of some restaurant, where he goes back into the nevernever, walk 5 paces and opens a gate to England.(his target destination)

You can't open a random gate into the nevernever, then move 10 feet and open another one and be exactly where you want to be.  You have to know where you're going.  That's why Lore is the default 'how do I get from point A to point B.

While on subject, why is Conviction important for thaumaturgy? Just for the extra mild consequence?

Yeah, I don't think conviction is important for thaumaturgy.  Complexity is Lore.  Calling up power is narrative(you can just choose how much power to call up - there is no hard limit), controlling the power is discipline.

[Haru]

you can just choose how much power to call up

Not true. Conviction limits how much power you can call up every exchange. If the power in one exchange is equal or below your conviction, you don't take casting stress, if it is above your conviction, you take casting stress equal to the number of shifts the power is above your conviction. (YS 271 second paragraph on the page)

[Taran]

oops!  Thanks for the correction.

[Blk4ce]

DO the foci bypass this? As in I have a focus item of +2 complexity and my Lore and Conviction are +5. I cast a Ritual of +7. Do I still take backlash?

And what about specialisations bonuses from Refinement?

[potestas]

An important thing when it comes to thaumaturgy is the 'story of the spell'.  Maybe you have everything, but you still need to organize it.

Here's a ritual that I did in a pbp to change the colour of a stolen car.  A maneuver with the a complexity under the characters Lore. (it's near the bottom of the post)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,39379.msg1964338.html#msg1964338
I think it often depends on narrative.  Things like wards last until morning, while things like temporary powers and scene aspects might only last a scene.  One part of YS says it'll last until sunrise but in another part it says the default duration is 1 scene or "15 minutes" on the time chart.

I'd have to look for the quotes.

From my reading is most everywhere is 5.  While other places further or closer to the nevernever will have stronger or weaker barriers. 

BUT here's the thing with World walking:  The reason they're called the Ways is because certain locations have resonance to others.  So even if you rip a hole open in a random location, there's no telling where in the nevernever you're going to end up.  Once in the nevernever, you could walk 10 feet, open another portal and be in a random place on the other side of the world.

That's why Harry used specific places to cross over.

He goes to alley 'x', opens a gate, walked half a kilometer down a path in the nevernever, opens up another gate at 'the weird tree', ends up in Tokyo, walks another block to the back alley of some restaurant, where he goes back into the nevernever, walk 5 paces and opens a gate to England.(his target destination)

You can't open a random gate into the nevernever, then move 10 feet and open another one and be exactly where you want to be.  You have to know where you're going.  That's why Lore is the default 'how do I get from point A to point B.

Yeah, I don't think conviction is important for thaumaturgy.  Complexity is Lore.  Calling up power is narrative(you can just choose how much power to call up - there is no hard limit), controlling the power is discipline.

so a successful lore roll would be enough to set him on the right path assuming the GM doesn't have anything planned for him while bouncing around. If we use it simply for travel to speed up the story we really wouldn't have to do much except use it as a narrative for how we can move around so quickly, The occasional surprise to keep its use "special" but for the purpose of the story if the wizard is in LA and needs to be in NEW York he could punch a hole in reality slip into the nevernever and be there in 20 minutes with the GMs ok or a successful lore role that set him on the right path.

[Taran]

Yeah, exactly.

While On the other hand, ripping a hole open in a random place to use it as a quick getaway during combat or chase might land him in hot water...

[Haru]

DO the foci bypass this? As in I have a focus item of +2 complexity and my Lore and Conviction are +5. I cast a Ritual of +7. Do I still take backlash?

And what about specialisations bonuses from Refinement?

Bonuses from foci and specialization stack, so if one of them can apply, both can.

Thaumaturgy usually has 2 types of bonuses: complexity and control. Complexity raises the "no preparation" level of lore, control raises your discipline for the purpose of gathering power. It would only be logical that there is a third type, power, that allows you to draw in more power per exchange. On the other hand, you are usually sacrificing time to cast a ritual, anyway, so those points are probably better spend elsewhere.


Backlash is something different from casting stress. In your example of a Conviction of 5, you would take 0 casting stress for gathering 5 shifts of power per exchange. You would take 1 shift of casting stress for gathering 6 shifts, 2 for 7 shifts, and so forth.
Lets say you have a Discipline of 4 and you draw 6 shifts of power. You take 1 shift of casting stress because of your Conviction. Now you roll a 0 on the discipline check, which means you are 2 shifts below your target of 6. Since this is thaumaturgy, you take the full 6 shifts you wanted to draw in as backlash, if you want to continue the spell. If this was the 3rd exchange, and you already drew up say 10 shifts in the previous 2 exchanges combined, you would now have to take a 16 shift backlash hit, in order to continue the spell.
Thaumaturgy backlash is a bitch.

[Blk4ce]

Or use a stunt, or tag an aspect, etc.

In order not to complicate things with a third variable, it would seem logical to me that complexity bonus from Refinement can serve as an extension of Conviction, but that is probably up the GM if he accepts it.

[Braincandy]

Thaumaturgy usually has 2 types of bonuses: complexity and control. Complexity raises the "no preparation" level of lore, control raises your discipline for the purpose of gathering power. It would only be logical that there is a third type, power, that allows you to draw in more power per exchange. On the other hand, you are usually sacrificing time to cast a ritual, anyway, so those points are probably better spend elsewhere.

That depends. If you have a sponsored magic and you are casting some "evocation speed" thaumaturgy, wouldn't a hypothetical power focus come into play? In this case, complexity isn't a factor, only how much power you can call up and control in one round.