"Pure Mortal" bonus

[g33k]

So... the standard "mortal bonus" of +2 refresh...  As I think about it, it seems to me that this fixed bonus will become less and less relevant at higher starting-refresh levels, making the Pure Mortal a less and less viable choice of PC; and, less and less relevant as the game goes on...

What about "+1 Refresh per 5-Refresh (or fraction thereof) of the campaign" and carrying it forward to include a Mortal Bonus as Milestones are achieved...
Exempli Gratia:
 If a campaign starts at 8 Refresh, Pure Mortals get the standard +2 in bonus refresh; when the entire campaign milestones past 10 refresh, though (hitting the 11th point), the Pure Mortals get a 3rd bonus-point.  Same +3 bonus if the campaign starts at 11+ Refresh, and it'd be +4 at 16-20 Refresh.
One could adjust this... 1 "PM bonus" per 6 in the campaign, or per 7, or per 4.  Depends on what you want, stronger Pure Mortals, or weaker.

The intent is just to keep PM characters a bit more in-scale with the supernaturals, who tend to get a LOT of potency out of Refresh spent on their supernatural stuff...

Yeah, I know the supernaturals are MEANT to dominate in the setting, and I think they still would, with this change.  Does this break anything, d'you think?  "Unintended consequences"?  Other comments?


- Steve, the g33k
 

[Taran]

I like it, though, I can't say if that would cause any balance issues.  My gut says it's fine.

[Sanctaphrax]

Sounds like a decent idea to me. It'd make mortals less dominant at below-canon Refresh levels and more viable at above-canon Refresh levels, which are probably good things.

PS: I don't think supernaturals are meant to dominate the setting. Supernaturals are hiding from mortal humanity because they fear human strength, after all. And there are hints that all the gods and all the monsters ultimately take their power from the human spirit.

[Mr. Death]

Sounds like a decent idea to me. It'd make mortals less dominant at below-canon Refresh levels and more viable at above-canon Refresh levels, which are probably good things.

PS: I don't think supernaturals are meant to dominate the setting. Supernaturals are hiding from mortal humanity because they fear human strength, after all. And there are hints that all the gods and all the monsters ultimately take their power from the human spirit.

Supernaturals are hiding from mortal humanity because they fear the strength of mortals in huge mobs--not individual mortals. There's a reason that one of the strongest mortals in the setting--Murphy--is never once shown as being able to slug it out with anything supernatural. Because a pure mortal without powers isn't supposed to be able to keep up one-on-one with supernatural creatures.

Personally, I think it's perfectly in keeping with the setting and the intent of the game that pure mortal characters are stronger at low levels, but can't keep up on an individual scale once you get into the high-powered game.

[g33k]

PS: I don't think supernaturals are meant to dominate the setting. Supernaturals are hiding from mortal humanity because they fear human strength, after all. And there are hints that all the gods and all the monsters ultimately take their power from the human spirit.

  I'd argue that in the "larger world" of the Dresdenverse, humans are dangerous for several reasons (which cause the supernaturals to hide from them en masse); but that in the DF stories (and in smaller-scale events generally), supernaturals are dominating forces (when active in said events); and DFRPG captures this really well, mechanically... but I think this fiction-canonical "truth" should be tweaked a bit for RPG purposes.

Really, I think we're more or less on the same page in this, just expressing it a bit differently.  It was probably kicked off by my poor choice of words, when I originally said "... the supernaturals are MEANT to dominate in the setting..."

- Steve, the g33k
 

[InFerrumVeritas]

I personally go with 1/4 rather than 1/5.

[Silverblaze]

Supernaturals are hiding from mortal humanity because they fear the strength of mortals in huge mobs--not individual mortals. There's a reason that one of the strongest mortals in the setting--Murphy--is never once shown as being able to slug it out with anything supernatural. Because a pure mortal without powers isn't supposed to be able to keep up one-on-one with supernatural creatures.

Personally, I think it's perfectly in keeping with the setting and the intent of the game that pure mortal characters are stronger at low levels, but can't keep up on an individual scale once you get into the high-powered game.

That is exactly my thought on the matter.  +2 is fine.  That said, the suggested system for trying to keep them more relevant, is likely not game breaking.

[Magicpockets]

Murphy is doing it wrong. Marcone is how you are supposed to play a mortal on that power level.

[Sanctaphrax]

1. Murphy defeats supernatural beings through straightforward violence multiple times. Not in arm-wrestling, of course, but she can keep up in combat.

2. Murphy is definitely not one of the strongest mortals in the setting. She's a tiny woman, combat isn't her only area of focus, and she's getting old. There are plenty of people in the army who could kill her 1v1.

But honestly, that's not terribly important. Her knowledge, determination, and luck are all way more significant than her martial arts/gun skills.

3. The mechanical power of a character is very different from their narrative power. Adding Fate Points to a character doesn't make them any stronger, in-story. But at the table, it makes them a lot more effective.

Mortals are supposed to be narratively weaker but mechanically competitive. The FP-heavy model for them fits this nicely.

PS: All that being said, I can see some reason to mechanically discourage high-Refresh mortals. A character with 10 stunts and 17 FP might just be irritating to GM for/play as.

[Haru]

Well, if mortals have to go at powerful supernaturals, they have to make up their lack of powers with excessive preparation. An all mortal group can actually play out that preparation in detail, since they all need that. For a mixed group, additional Fate points can act as a shortcut for the preparation, so you don't have to play a few extra scenes with one player alone every time the group has to go somewhere. +1 Refresh for every 4 sounds like it should be rather balanced.

Though keep in mind, that mortals have one other advantage that is not quite trivial: equipment. A ghoul has to pay 1 point of refresh for weapon:2 claws, while the mortal can carry a weapon:2 sword and a weapon:2 gun without the need to spend refresh on them. What's more, he can get compelled on carrying them and get more fate points that way. Armor can replace part of the toughness powers, again for no refresh costs, usually. And there are probably a few other powers that can be emulated by equipment. Not perfectly, granted, but enough to make a difference.

And yes, theoretically, anyone can get equipment, not only mortals. But "realistically", they don't. A ghoul doesn't take up a broadsword, only because it is weapon:3 and therefore better than its claws. It's a ghoul, it has claws, that's what it fights with. And I have yet to see a Fae with a Kevlar vest. It's just not in their nature, except in very rare cases (billy goats with submachine guns being one).

[Magicpockets]

Most Vampires will gladly pick up weapons though. Also, if you play outside of the US, carrying guns around can suddenly become very nonviable.

I think at post Submerged, Mortals need some tangible advantage along the lines of extra skill points if they are supposed to be in on the action at the front lines. Otherwise, they work just fine in support roles such as social characters, assuming you do not allow arms race powers such as stoicism (which renders Intimidate almost completely nonviable). Marcone rarely has to go toe-to-toe with supernaturals, and when he has to, he does it on his terms (see Even Hand).

[Mr. Death]

1. Murphy defeats supernatural beings through straightforward violence multiple times. Not in arm-wrestling, of course, but she can keep up in combat.

This isn't quite true. Murphy defeats supernatural beings through somewhat roundabout violence--head to head, direct confrontation doesn't work out well for her. Just read her fight in Aftermath. When she confronts the servitors directly, on even ground, she ends up with a busted arm and misses her shots. She defeats them either from ambush, or by tricking them into a vulnerability.

2. Murphy is definitely not one of the strongest mortals in the setting. She's a tiny woman, combat isn't her only area of focus, and she's getting old. There are plenty of people in the army who could kill her 1v1.

What I meant was that she is the pure mortal who we see most often and who is portrayed as extraordinarily badass for a mortal. We don't see those people in the army.

3. The mechanical power of a character is very different from their narrative power. Adding Fate Points to a character doesn't make them any stronger, in-story. But at the table, it makes them a lot more effective.

Mortals are supposed to be narratively weaker but mechanically competitive. The FP-heavy model for them fits this nicely.

There is a clear point, though, where being mortal just doesn't cut it anymore. You don't see Murphy even trying to fight an Outsider, for instance. And a room full of goons that Harry could've toasted with relative ease gives her the fight of her life alone.

PS: All that being said, I can see some reason to mechanically discourage high-Refresh mortals. A character with 10 stunts and 17 FP might just be irritating to GM for/play as.

Oh, definitely. I had a mortal in one of my games who I could barely touch because he started with such a high pool of fate points.

[InFerrumVeritas]

But Fate Points can be used to create solutions that are narratively round about.  They mean that the mortals can have that planning done beforehand (without having to spend playing time doing it).  It's one of the way Fate can simulate fiction beautifully.  You don't have to set up the brilliant plan and spend time laying it out (just like we don't see characters do), but can use FP to declare that you had when things look bad (just like is a popular trope of things like spy and heist fiction).

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah.

When Murphy wins a fight it'll probably look close even if it really isn't. It'll look like she had to plan and cheat. But mechanically she probably just had to spend FP.

[narphoenix]

Yeah.

When Murphy wins a fight it'll probably look close even if it really isn't. It'll look like she had to plan and cheat. But mechanically she probably just had to spend FP.

The Aftermath fight was mechanically close though. A busted arm is a severe consequence.