What would a power granting ritual look like

[InFerrumVeritas]

While the argument has been thoroughly made that those rules apply anyway, I'd actually contest that the sidebar is general as written.
My bolding for emphasis. These rules are simply the rules for taking on temporary powers, no matter the source. The most common source would be when powerful "benefactors" imbues a character temporarily, but that's only one possibility.

Okay, seriously guys.  Stop ignoring the YS283 sidebar.  If you don't have the correct version of the book, stop using the preorder one and buy it.  The 283 sidebar specifically says that those rules apply to rituals.  Done.  It's RAW.

The cost of a ritual can be argued, the school of magic, the limitations, the optimality, whether or not the ritual has the be cast the immediate scene before or can be "banked".  There are lots, lots of things up to interpretation on this.  But that bit is stated explicitly. 

[Cadd]

(@InFerrumVeritas: I take it you quoted my post as support for your statement, because you and me are arguing the same thing here; otherwise my post was a lot less clear than I thought it was...)

I wanted to point out that the sidebar is actually clear and general enough to be applied to stuff like rituals even if the YS283 margin note didn't exist. The most important part of the YS92 sidebar is really the "Regardless of the circumstances" sentence.

[InFerrumVeritas]

(@InFerrumVeritas: I take it you quoted my post as support for your statement, because you and me are arguing the same thing here; otherwise my post was a lot less clear than I thought it was...)

I wanted to point out that the sidebar is actually clear and general enough to be applied to stuff like rituals even if the YS283 margin note didn't exist. The most important part of the YS92 sidebar is really the "Regardless of the circumstances" sentence.

Oh, yes.  We are in agreement.  I just wanted to remove the ambiguity of your statement because a significant amount of argument has been made that this is something which is ambiguous and it is not.

[potestas]

Okay, seriously guys.  Stop ignoring the YS283 sidebar.  If you don't have the correct version of the book, stop using the preorder one and buy it.  The 283 sidebar specifically says that those rules apply to rituals.  Done.  It's RAW.

The cost of a ritual can be argued, the school of magic, the limitations, the optimality, whether or not the ritual has the be cast the immediate scene before or can be "banked".  There are lots, lots of things up to interpretation on this.  But that bit is stated explicitly.

my copy has big line though it so the question becomes: what's the best way to do it and not worry about fate points. cause I am doing it, so now we need good ways to do it? I've posted a few any other ideas.

[Taran]

I've already suggested ways:  Free tags.

So you've got to build multiple aspects or multiple tags into your rituals.  This would make your rituals incredibly complex.

Lets say the base complexity (based on my formula is) is 9 + (Aspect + duration)*Frequency.

1 power for 1 day, then would be complexity 17, but you'd only get 1 free use for the day.
More times/day would be +8 shifts/tag

Each aspect would have to have its own duration.  So you could have 5 aspects, each with a duration of 1 week which you could tag once each.  They'd still last 1 week so, if you use up all the tags, you'd have to spend the FP's on them(as long as you pay 4 shifts to make them sticky).

This ritual would have a complexity of 59. (3X5) for 5 aspects: 15 + (7X5) for 1 week duration for each aspect + base of 9 = 59
lowering the duration to 1 day would be a complexity of 49.

To make it cheaper, you could have
An after noon: +7
1 aspect last 1 day +8
1 aspect last 1 week + 9
Base complexity: 9

That would be 3 free fragile tags for a total of: 33 shifts of complexity.

I'm not sure if that seems too high/low or seems fair.  Just a suggestion.

Edit:  And just to add to the chorus of voices, I'd like to point out a significant fact in the game:

OW pg. 92

Classic Werewolves
Description: As for werewolves.
What We Know: A classic werewolf is a person
who uses magic to transform himself into a
wolf; the magic reshapes the human body to a
lupine body.
Unfortunately, classic werewolves have to
learn how to do everything in wolf-form—
they’re still a human mind in a wolf body and
lack lupine instincts and experience.

The game didn't give were-wolves -2 Ritual: transformation.  They used Magic as a narrative justification for spending refresh on shape-shifting powers,  with a refresh cost of -7!

So I find it hard to believe that, just because someone has Thaumaturgy, they can use it to take 7 refresh worth of powers for free that a Shapeshifting character (with the justification of being able to use magic to shapeshift) had to spend a boat-load of refresh on.  And, to boot, the shapeshifter only gets that one trick while the thaumaturgist can do much, much more like create wards, landmines, divinations etc...

If you want to be a wizard who shape-shifts, then really, you should take shape shifting powers.

[potestas]

not sure how a tag would work to grant a power.

[Cadd]

The tag is there to provide the value of one FP, as you have to pay 1FP/refresh worth of powers granted. The use of tags to pay that is whats meant by "(or tags...)" in the margin note on thaum-granted powers. What grants the powers is the ritual itself, but the player still needs to pay for it - hence the aspect to tag.

There's further (or really previous) discussion with the designers about paying with tags that led to the addition of that margin note, but somone not on a phone will have to dig it up

[Taran]

I left a link that lead to a link...that lead to another link.  Here it is

Fred's comments are relevant:
"A tag is a free invoke.

A tag therefore can do anything an invoke can.

An invoke can invoke for effect."

Edit:  there's a more detailed thread where Fred is talking about using Thaum to get temporary powers and basically says, "yes, buy them".  But there's more about using aspects and tagging them in that same thread...I have no idea where to find it.

*searching...searching*

[Taran]

Double-post:

FOUND IT.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,17367.0.html

[potestas]

that probably is the easiest solution, or maybe a magic item a one shot deal or once per session type thing. I just think wizards should be able to do more. I think I will never get passed my D&D wizard, I made most of his great spells he was an unholy terror by the time we were done leveling him he was a one man party, spell for everything. Of course that was D&D before 4th edition killed it by making it into a video game on paper

[Taran]

I think the 'one man party' is exactly why you have to pay FP's to gain temporary powers.

that probably is the easiest solution, or maybe a magic item a one shot deal or once per session type thing.

An enchanted item won't get you the complexity you need for a power, probably.  Although, you could use an IoP, get a rebate and have an "enchanted item" that gives you strength or some other power for a relatively low price.

I like using potions and enchanted items to cover all my bases.  Let's say your Lore is 4 and you have a crafting specialty to boost enchanted items to 5 or 6.

That's an <<insert skill>> item for any situation/solution.

Need to leap over a high fences (or dodge an attack)? athletics: 6 (biomancy)
Need to rip a door off it's hinges? Might 6 (biomancy)
Need to have "just the right come-back" as a social defense? Rapport: 6 (divination)
Need to break into that warehouse?: Burglary to become a gas and go through the crack in the door.

You can either have these at the ready(if you know what you're getting in to) or have them in potion form.
For combat:
Guns or Fists or weapons(for attacking things immune to magic)
Block or Athletics for defense

There's a character in a submerged game I'm running who's a crafter and he's got an enchanted (weapon:9) sword usable by anyone 5X/day.  Give that to someone who has a good weapon skill and see what happens or make a Skill replacement item that gives you a Weapons attack of + "X" and you could use it yourself.

Wizards are pretty flexible - and can still do a lot of indirect damage - even without buying powers.

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't like the idea of using tags to gain temporary Powers. I think it's too easy, and that by letting people casually acquire 1-Refresh Powers it can easily unbalance the game. If you want a read a long-ass argument about that and other things, look here.

I just think wizards should be able to do more. I think I will never get passed my D&D wizard, I made most of his great spells he was an unholy terror by the time we were done leveling him he was a one man party, spell for everything.

In other words, you want the game to be broken in your favour.

Wizards absolutely should not be able to do more. D&D3 wizards became all-powerful because WotC screwed up. If you can make a similarly powerful wizard in DFRPG, it's because Evil Hat screwed up.

In theory, wizards are no more useful to the party than anyone else. This is true in both D&D and DFRPG. In DFRPG it's sometimes also true in practice, in D&D3 it really isn't.

Of course that was D&D before 4th edition killed it by making it into a video game on paper

Please. If you must drag D&D edition wars into this forum, come up with some better attacks. "A video game on paper" is such a lazy and meaningless insult.

[Haru]

that probably is the easiest solution, or maybe a magic item a one shot deal or once per session type thing.

That would again be a bargain. You can get 4 enchanted items for 1 point of refresh. If that equals 4 points of temporary powers, you could, again, go mad with power here.

I just think wizards should be able to do more. I think I will never get passed my D&D wizard, I made most of his great spells he was an unholy terror by the time we were done leveling him he was a one man party, spell for everything. Of course that was D&D before 4th edition killed it by making it into a video game on paper

That might be the core issue. Fate isn't D&D. Characters aren't really balanced around powers, they are balanced around narrative impact. Granted, it is still a bit lopsided, and especially wizards can still do a lot, if you have a clever player, but it isn't as bad as some other games I've come across.

Or to put it into the words of a guy on another board:
"I blame WotC for brainwashing us into thinking that +2 damage per attack is acceptable for a fighter, while wizards can get away with stopping time and gating in solars."

Also, aren't there usually other people at the table? I for one love for my character to be a hero in a scene, to show of his skills and what makes him special. But at the same time, I wouldn't want to be the center of every scene. It's what I like to call the Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit problem.

Another great thing about Fate and what it taught me is that there doesn't have to be a lock-key type solution to everything. Just because there is a big strong monster, doesn't mean the solution has to be to be big and strong. If the village is terrorized by a monster, one solution would be to slay the monster. A strong fighter or a wizard with some powerful attack spells might so the trick. But that's not the only story you can tell. You could go in with a socialite and save the day. Not by talking the monster down (though even that might work), but by motivating the villagers, coordinating them, getting them ready to fight the monster themselves. It is going to be a vastly different story than the one the monster hunter would be telling, but in the end, the monster would be defeated. At no point was it necessary for the socialite to pick up any strength or similar powers to fight the monster.


Using tags to justify temporary powers doesn't have to be a casual thing. But if there is a good story around it, or a well thought out explanation, I'm all for it. Even for stunts (minus the ritual then). I think that allowing something will most of the time work better than prohibiting it. But then again, if someone is using this to take temporary powers all the time, I would require them to take a permanent power to do so. After all, that's what their character is now all about. And if the explanation isn't reasonable, I will still veto it. A gunfighter using a resources roll to get a hold of a rifle with a "scope" stunt? Sure. A half-pixie exotic dancer? Not so much.

[Taran]

To clarify: If you went with the minimum complexity (based on my example) there'd be no way to fit a power into an enchanted item.  An enchanted item could allow an aspect to tag (or tag for effect) but not to gain a power.

@sanctaphrax.  I was kind of thinking that 12-14 complexity wouldn't be a simple ritual.  Not an "every second scene" kind of thing.  And that's for a singular power.  Obviously, at higher refresh, that kind of complexity would be easier to reach and declarations easier to obtain because of higher skills.

The narrative of the ritual and the difficulty for obtaining the things you need for it (ie: declarations) are entirely up to the GM so I can see where, if a GM is doesn't rein things in, it could get out of hand.

Maybe 1 aspect/refresh (instead of 1 aspect/power).  That would require multiple aspects tagged for any given power and a higher overall complexity.

[Cadd]

It's already "supposed" (if you want to allow it) to be one aspect per refresh, as the tags are to give "virtual fate points", and the fp cost of temp powers are 1 fp per refresh, not per power.