Golems Are Great

[InFerrumVeritas]

When I was working on the duplication power, the biggest thing I had to look at was how can having a character that exists only to create aspects affect things.

Potentially, a character with even an unimpressive golem can have the golem maneuver over and over to help him.  This could result in a +2 every turn of played right.

Hence the skill reduction I used.

Otherwise I really like the write up you did Taran.

[Taran]

That's a consideration but there are several factors to look at:

1. The GM sets the difficulty for maneuvers and the less probable ones will have a higher difficulty and the baseline is 3 shifts.  So a golem with a skill tree capped at 2 will be less successful

2. Opponents can defend against maneuvers.  The more you dilute your refres pool, the lower your skill trees and the easier it will be to defend

3.  Using a combination of contcts and resourses allows you to hire npc's to help.  And there's no skill penalties for them.

4.  You're splitting your refresh pool between two 'characters' so the occasional +2, in my mind is a perk of having a golem and it brings the power back up to what a typical character would have if they focused all their abilities into, say, a brick-type character or a straight up combat mage with lots of refinements.

[Blk4ce]

Taran, that's a good way to do it. However, I have two questions.
-The rules distinguish mundane from magical knowledge with Scholarship and Lore. In the same spirit, shouldn't golems be differentiated at Lore instead of Craftmanship, since they are not mundane creations. The skill craftmanship gave me the notion that it was used at everyday things (computers, doors, walls, etc.)
-Would a thau crafting specialisation have an effect to it, especially if it was called (thematic) golemomancy? Make it better, more competent, stay longer?

[Taran]

Taran, that's a good way to do it. However, I have two questions.
-The rules distinguish mundane from magical knowledge with Scholarship and Lore. In the same spirit, shouldn't golems be differentiated at Lore instead of Craftmanship, since they are not mundane creations. The skill craftmanship gave me the notion that it was used at everyday things (computers, doors, walls, etc.)
-Would a thau crafting specialisation have an effect to it, especially if it was called (thematic) golemomancy? Make it better, more competent, stay longer?

Part of it is balance. 
Since you're already going to have a High Lore (since your main power is Thaumaturgy) I don't want to put all eggs in one basket.  Also, Craftsmanship rarely gets used.
So, craftsmanship represents the sturdiness of the construct while Lore represents your ability to animate it.
I was also thinking that a constructs skill tree be capped by the creators Lore...It wouldn't come into play until very high refresh.  Let's say, for instance, 18 refresh
-3 Thaumaturgy
 -14 IoP +2 obvious
       -2 modular abilities
       -14 refresh worth of powers

The skill tree of the golum would be equal to the casters and that doesn't make sense to me...I suppose, if the crafter is using a spirit of intellect it makes sense.  In any case, I thought the skill tree of the golem couldn't be higher than the Crafters Lore. This makes both Lore and Craftsmanship important.

I'm not saying this is a good solution but one I thought up last night.  I'm going to do a sample character with skills and his partner golem(s) and see how it compares with a regular character of the same refresh.  What InFerrumVeritas says should be a consideration.  I'm just not convinced it's a game-breaker.

Even at submerged, the golem will only have a skill tree at Feet in the Water.  It probably won't be able to hit any submerged enemy.  It's going to NEED the tagged aspects (via the caster) in order to hit.  Once again...I'll try a write-up to see how it compares.

Edit:  I never answered your second question about the gollemancy specialization.   Honestly, I don't know and haven't thought about it.  It might make it too complicated.  I see crafting a golem the same as crafting in general.  So you put your specialties into Crafting and use those enchanted items to supe up your golem.

[Taran]

double-post:

A note on Modular abilities: the cost of modular abilities might be cheaper if you can only change it between adventures (like an enchanted item).  Otherwise, you can have a golem that transforms or does the Power Rangers thing where multiple small golems combine to make a more powerful one.  Then it'd be the full round action, like normal.

Here's a sample I made at Feet in the water.

(click to show/hide)

Skills
+4 Lore; Discipline
+3 Craftmanship; Conviction
+2 Rapport; Guns
+1 Empathy; Presence

Powers
-3 Thaumaturgy
-2 Iop
+2 obvious
      -2 modular abilities
      -2 modular ability points
      -0 Undying

Specialization: +1 Crafting power
Foci: +1 Crafting Power;
2 enchanted items:
Weapon 5 (weapons) attack; 1/day (useable by anyone)
Block 6 1/day

(click to show/hide)

Lab assistant:
Skills
+2 Lore;
+1 Scholarship; Craftsmanship
Powers


***

Homunculous spy: 000
skills
+2 Stealth;  Alertness
+1 Investigation;  Burglary
Powers:
Diminuitive size
Wings (or cloak of shadows)

***

Chauffeur/henchman 000
Skills
+2 Drive; Guns
+1 Might; Scholarship
Powers:
Breath Weapon (guns)

***

Combat Robot: 000 (00) Armour: 1
Gear:
Club (weapon 2)
Enchanted item: weapon 5 ranged
Skills
+2 Weapons;  Athletics
+1 Alertness; Fists
Powers:
-2 Inhuman toughness**
+1 Catch: Lightning
-1 On-board targeting (+1 to attack with weapons)

***

Golems without Modular abilities:
Skill Cap boosted to +3
Maybe around 12 skill points?
Honestly, I don't have a formula for skills...I'm just kind of eyeing it...once you hit 5 or 6 refresh just use the rules in YS.

Combat robot
Add Inhuman STR

Spy
Add wings and supernatural sense

**boost the catch to +3 and take Supernatural toughness.

The combat robot seems powerful except when you consider the Thaumaturgists Low defense and whimpy stress track.  When people start focusing on him, he'll go down pretty fast.
- He's spent most of his refresh on the golem and therefore doesn't have lots of enchanted items for defense or attack.
- Because he needs Lore, discipline and Craftsmanship, defense/attack skills like athletics become tertiary making him squishy.
-I see a problem if he uses the golem to block attacks against him every exchange while he uses up his enchanted items.  But the items are in short supply and the golem isn't using his offense, so I don't know if this is actually OP.
- It's no more flexible than a shapeshifter who can focus on Social skills in one form, then change and be a powerful combatant.

You could also make it a supplemental to command the golem(telling it to attack or defend or change targets).  This way the character would:
1. have to be present during a combat.  ( you might be able to get around that by taking supernatural sense (to see through the golem's eyes) and/or pack instincts.
2. be at -1 to any actions when commanding the golem.

I'll try one at submerged and see how it looks.

thoughts?

[potestas]

Good luck finding any DM who will let that fly. Most will only allow you to generate effects measurable in shifts. E.g. instead of giving you Inhuman Strength for a duration, you will have an X shift effect that substitutes your ability to lift/break things.

If you do find someone who will allow you actual power emulation without paying, let me know. It'll be wizard abuse time!

Your looking at one, I am not sure why there would be a need to spend FP. The spell can be dispelled and its temporary. If your going to spend FP like might as well do it permanently and get the power for real. I think I am in the camp that says its free as long as its temporary.

[Taran]

What if you power it for 1 year?

Is it still free?

Yes, it can be dispelled, but how often are you going to run into another wizard that will dispel it?

Adventure 1:  I do a ritual for Inhuman Strength: duration 1 year.
Adventure 2:  I do a ritual for Inhuman recovery: duration 1 year.
Adventure 3: I do a ritual for inhuman toughness: duration 1 year.

etc...

The difference between 1 year and 1 day shouldn't really make a difference since they use the same methods.

[potestas]

What if you power it for 1 year?

Is it still free?

Yes, it can be dispelled, but how often are you going to run into another wizard that will dispel it?

Adventure 1:  I do a ritual for Inhuman Strength: duration 1 year.
Adventure 2:  I do a ritual for Inhuman recovery: duration 1 year.
Adventure 3: I do a ritual for inhuman toughness: duration 1 year.

etc...

The difference between 1 year and 1 day shouldn't really make a difference since they use the same methods.

it doesn't, and if you want to have your guy spend the time and resources to do it all I am good with it, but don't whine if some comes by and dispels it or a hard rain shorts it out, though honestly I don't see how they could ever grant it for a year. Wouldn't each shift over a scene add 2 to the complexity and If it doesn't you could as game master easily stipulate that.   At that point hed be lucky to get the day let alone the week. I want them to be able to grant themselves what they need for the story, but I am not just going to give it to them. That would trivialize it.

Also at some point I could offer compels to represent the fact he's using up his resources and contacts to keep the thing going. So that will lead to more stories . We could also ties the ability to his conviction since he's using his own resources to power the spell maybe he operates at -1 or -2 per ability he has granted himself. So now he's trading raw power for a power. Actually that seems eminently fair.

[Taran]

But now you're house-ruling to keep it balanced.

The rain shorting it out would be a compel.

The big thing would be thresholds.  If you're going to allow it, you should treat each newly gotten power as it's own spell

So a threshold 2 isn't going to lower your total pool of powers, each spell would be its own pool of powers reduced by the threshold.  Maybe powers reduced below 0 zare permanently destroyed.

How often do thresholds come into play in your games?

[Cadd]

^{Note: I'll mark clearly what I see as Interpretation and what is Opinion in this post.}
Interpretation:
Rituals granting powers only work as justification to explain how you're picking up a temporary power. Temporary powers, by the rules, require one FP per refresh for one scene. Designers (can't remember if it was Lenny or Fred or who it was) stated that the idea was to be able to use tags instead of FP's.

This does however mean that if you do a ritual with a one-week duration, you can access those powers during that week but you still have to pay either a FP or a Tag per refresh worth of power for every scene.

Opinion:
Essentially - if you're gonna have a power as a continual part of your character - pay permanent refresh. The Thaumaturgy can very well stand as justification that you have it:
"My Biomancy-specialized wizard has upped his own healing rate so much that I represent it with Inhuman Recovery; he does a ritual regularly to 'top it off' off-screen"
or you could even use someone elses Thaumaturgy as justification:
"My buddy Wizard X has done this magical tattoo on me that allows me to take the form of a crow with just a quick whisper (Beast Change/Human Form/Wings/Diminutive Size/whatever)"
I'd even say that if your concept involves regularly boosting yourself with a variety of 1-2 refresh powers - take Modular Abilites, maybe affected by a Limitation (fan-made replacement/expansion of the various rebate powers) that you have to use a ritual (narratively, not mechanically) to activate or swap powers.

(click to show/hide)

An example of option 1 and 3 above is Listens-to-Wind and what we see him do in the fight against the Skinwalker.
That entire fight is really a giant show of two beings with True Shapeshifting and Modular Abilities* duking it out. LtW's narrative justification for having these is his mastery of shapeshifting thaumaturgy, and during the fight he narratively casts spell after spell to change his form but mechanically he's just using the above two abilities to switch around skills and powers repeatedly.

*_{Based on this fight, I think there should be some upgrade of Modular Abilities to speed it up to a Supplemental action rather than a full though... Or that lets you do both MA-power swap and TS-skill swap in one supplemental action, like the Incite Emotion/Emotional Vampire can Incite and Feed in one action.}

[potestas]

But now you're house-ruling to keep it balanced.

The rain shorting it out would be a compel.

The big thing would be thresholds.  If you're going to allow it, you should treat each newly gotten power as it's own spell

So a threshold 2 isn't going to lower your total pool of powers, each spell would be its own pool of powers reduced by the threshold.  Maybe powers reduced below 0 zare permanently destroyed.

How often do thresholds come into play in your games?

compels make the story, and its a fair trade for having a power for a bit.

I was thinking threshold's should affect the power of a spell. It might make it impossible to use the power without an invite. if you need a certain number of successes and the threshold brings you below that poof no more spell. Even a weak threshold could really affect the power, you might have to account for it in the ritual and that would bring up the cost. I don't really see how a player could literally run around all day with super powers. The time involved to make the ritual work would take up his morning. But if you over do it then the players wont really believe its something they can do. Transformations is something I like and think all wizards should be able to do but its very difficult in DF. Not sure

I really don't use them much as there are so many rules its hard just to get my head around the basics, then add in stuff like thresholds. If your going into a private home is about the only time they factor in. But we might want to bring them into it more, allowing the game to balance out the "super hero". I mean if stuff like that happened most people would not consider it a reliable way to win the day. Something they do for a conflict and then end it. Which is kind of what you want but not so heavy handed. So a wizard can make himself strong enough to wrestle a bear but because it looks like rain or the bear is the pet of a loving wife and mother of five, it probably wouldn't be the best way to resolve the issue of getting back the bear. The players can consider and reject it on their own. Players still can grant themselves powers but it wouldn't be the go to way of doing things. not sure gets dicey the more you think on it.