Golems Are Great

[Blk4ce]

The body, vessel, or 'normal' matter or material would indeed remain.  Any active rituals involved in the golem however would be cut off and stopped by the circle, since there is no longer access to any magic/energy from outside the circle.

But if it is self-powered or if I stored magic energy inside? Basically that's the difference between a golem and a regular construct, I think.

[Haru]

The body, vessel, or 'normal' matter or material would indeed remain.  Any active rituals involved in the golem however would be cut off and stopped by the circle, since there is no longer access to any magic/energy from outside the circle.

That's not necessarily true. Bob's skull is designed to be a "home away from home" for Bob, to grant him protection from things that erode magic and magical entities. Granted, it's mostly sunrise and sundown he uses it for, but I'm pretty sure it works for other types of eroding as well. Including circles. I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work for something like this as well. The circle is probably going to do something, yes. Maybe slowing the golem down. But it wouldn't have to erode the entire magical construct or the spirit within the construct.

[Hick Jr]

First, here is a link to the D20PFSRD's list of golems. There's at least two dozen, so you might get a lot of inspiration from that.

I would probably create a Golem-Master with Projection and Variable Abilities. The Variable Abilities has several lists, one for each type of golem you want to create. Add Ritual:Golems for less direct-combat stuff (i.e. making a bird-shaped golem to go spy on someone), and it'd probably look something like this, at no specific power level.

Ritual: Golems [-2]
Refinement [-X]
Skilled Projection [-3]
Variable Abilities (Golem Master, -3 Surcharge) [-X]
Limitation [+X] Variable Abilities only apply to golems.

An Iron Golem's list, for example, would probably look a bit like this. The building blocks would vary depending on your power level, and the specifics of the golem. An animated suit of armor is going to have different stats than something the size of Optimus Prime. (For reference, I based this on the Pathfinder version of an Iron Golem.)

Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
Immunity (Mortal Magic, Fire) [-6]
Limitation [+7] Toughness and Magic Immunity bypassed by rust and electricity attacks, Golem takes -2 penalty to all Athletics rolls and cannot take supplemental actions for two rounds after being hit by an electricity attack, Recovery activates only after being hit by a fire-based attack.
Hulking Size [-2]
Ranged Area Venomous Natural Weaponry (Sword, Poison Gas) [-4]
Semi-Animate [-1]
Mindless [-0]
Feel No Pain [-3]


Oh, and regarding flavor stuff for Golems, it depends on if you want to do historical/mythic golems (big clay dude with the name of God written on his forehead, keeps him alive) or more modern golems, which suit the DFRPG's definition of a golem better (a big hunk of mortal-world-stuff with an animating spirit, typically an elemental, caged inside of it and keeping it animated. the barrier that keeps the elemental in has the additional effect of keeping all other magic out. The mythical Golem has more of a "holy" bent to him, while the modern ones are a bit more multipurpose. Golems can be pretty versatile depending on how esoteric you're willing to get with it. Iron Golems, to use the above example, are typically big suits of armor, which is fine. However, don't think "animated armor". Think about those big metal eagles on the side of the Chrysler building. Think about a gigantic, poison-ink-breathing metal kraken that you reshaped a submarine into. Think about Iron Man. Think about Pacific Rim.

Well, that was my two-cents.

[Todjaeger]

But if it is self-powered or if I stored magic energy inside? Basically that's the difference between a golem and a regular construct, I think.

Harry and Ivy were self-powered (with some limits) in Small Favor, but a golem isn't self-powered.

A traditional/classic golem (as opposed to those from Dungeons & Dragons et. al.) depending on which stories are used, is activated/animated by specific , ritualistic Hebrew writing on put on paper and inserted either into the mouth or placed on the head of the golem.  Again, depending on which stories on listens to, removing, altering or defacing the writing on the paper would deactivate or destroy the golem.  The creator of the golem needs to perform the appropriate ritual(s) in order for the golem to animate in the first place.  Once that happens, the paper would presumably serve as a link to the golem for the power it needs to function.  Again, the containment circle would act as a barrier preventing outside power from flowing into the golem.

Incidentally, a Threshold would also serve a similar purpose if the Threshold was hostile to the golem.

[Todjaeger]

That's not necessarily true. Bob's skull is designed to be a "home away from home" for Bob, to grant him protection from things that erode magic and magical entities. Granted, it's mostly sunrise and sundown he uses it for, but I'm pretty sure it works for other types of eroding as well. Including circles. I don't see a reason why it shouldn't work for something like this as well. The circle is probably going to do something, yes. Maybe slowing the golem down. But it wouldn't have to erode the entire magical construct or the spirit within the construct.

My understanding of Bob's skull from Ghost Story and Cold Days is that it is a sanctuary, acting as a sort of pocket Nevernever domain controlled (and powered) by Bob.  This would mean that the skull is closer to being an Item of Power or Enchanted Item as opposed to the target or an active ritual.  Also Bob has taken shelter in other, non-magical things from daylight (IIRC a gun barrel in Changes) for brief periods.

Keep in mind with golems and other constructs, the creator needs to include some sort of provision for the construct to obey the creator's commands, or else have some form of at least limited intelligence and something to keep the construct within behavior parameters that the creator specifies.  Without these, a golem or construct will either just sit/stand there and do nothing, or else might decide to do something on it's own which likely wouldn't be what the creator wants.

A circle or a Threshold would disrupt the ongoing ritual which would provide or control the above 'programming'.

[Haru]

It all depends on what makes your golem tick. If it is actually a magical robot, a circle will shut it down, no question about it.

But what if you have a Bob like entity at the heart of your golem? He could easily work the thing even inside of a circle, and he would be protected inside the golem. And he wouldn't need any continued commands, he can think for himself. Now another question would be, could he break the circle? We know from Harry, that breaking a circle doesn't just require a physical act, but an effort of will, too. That's why Binder's gentlemen can't break the circle, for example.

Though granted, a golem like that feels much more like its own character concept than part of a master/golem concept. Anyway, a lot of possible compels to be had, I guess.

[Hick Jr]

Bob doesn't have free will. I'm not sure which book exactly, but he's talking to Harry about the Denarians or Uriel or something, and he mentions how he doesn't actually want it. So a Bob-like entity would not be able to break the circle.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm not familiar with that power.

http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,19934.msg1945538.html#msg1945538

It wasn't designed for robot-making, but with a little bit of tweaking it should work decently.

[Todjaeger]

It all depends on what makes your golem tick. If it is actually a magical robot, a circle will shut it down, no question about it.

But what if you have a Bob like entity at the heart of your golem? He could easily work the thing even inside of a circle, and he would be protected inside the golem. And he wouldn't need any continued commands, he can think for himself. Now another question would be, could he break the circle? We know from Harry, that breaking a circle doesn't just require a physical act, but an effort of will, too. That's why Binder's gentlemen can't break the circle, for example.

Though granted, a golem like that feels much more like its own character concept than part of a master/golem concept. Anyway, a lot of possible compels to be had, I guess.

Indeed, if a golem is built like a Wardhound, it is basically a magical robot.  Note though that have a golem 'piloted' by a self-aware entity like a spirit that is 'bound' into the golem also can run into a problem, because the Binding tying the entity to the golem would also be impacted by the circle.

An entity 'piloting' a golem without the Binding to restrict or force the entity/golem's actions would actually be closer to having an entity possess and empower a physical object, and therefore I wouldn't really consider something like that a golem, or use any construct-type rules to build it.

[Blk4ce]

Harry and Ivy were self-powered (with some limits) in Small Favor, but a golem isn't self-powered.

A traditional/classic golem (as opposed to those from Dungeons & Dragons et. al.) depending on which stories are used, is activated/animated by specific , ritualistic Hebrew writing on put on paper and inserted either into the mouth or placed on the head of the golem.  Again, depending on which stories on listens to, removing, altering or defacing the writing on the paper would deactivate or destroy the golem.  The creator of the golem needs to perform the appropriate ritual(s) in order for the golem to animate in the first place.  Once that happens, the paper would presumably serve as a link to the golem for the power it needs to function.  Again, the containment circle would act as a barrier preventing outside power from flowing into the golem.

Incidentally, a Threshold would also serve a similar purpose if the Threshold was hostile to the golem.

Errr, I think your assumption is wrong. This is a typical example of self-powered golem. The name/paper serves as an AA battery, not as a link to a continuous ritual, and if he would have a link it would be a transmitter to give orders from distance (the transmitter then would be shutted down by the circle).

First, here is a link to the D20PFSRD's list of golems. There's at least two dozen, so you might get a lot of inspiration from that.

I would probably create a Golem-Master with Projection and Variable Abilities. The Variable Abilities has several lists, one for each type of golem you want to create. Add Ritual:Golems for less direct-combat stuff (i.e. making a bird-shaped golem to go spy on someone), and it'd probably look something like this, at no specific power level.

Ritual: Golems [-2]
Refinement [-X]
Skilled Projection [-3]
Variable Abilities (Golem Master, -3 Surcharge) [-X]
Limitation [+X] Variable Abilities only apply to golems.

An Iron Golem's list, for example, would probably look a bit like this. The building blocks would vary depending on your power level, and the specifics of the golem. An animated suit of armor is going to have different stats than something the size of Optimus Prime. (For reference, I based this on the Pathfinder version of an Iron Golem.)

Inhuman Strength [-2]
Supernatural Toughness [-4]
Supernatural Recovery [-4]
Immunity (Mortal Magic, Fire) [-6]
Limitation [+7] Toughness and Magic Immunity bypassed by rust and electricity attacks, Golem takes -2 penalty to all Athletics rolls and cannot take supplemental actions for two rounds after being hit by an electricity attack, Recovery activates only after being hit by a fire-based attack.
Hulking Size [-2]
Ranged Area Venomous Natural Weaponry (Sword, Poison Gas) [-4]
Semi-Animate [-1]
Mindless [-0]
Feel No Pain [-3]


Oh, and regarding flavor stuff for Golems, it depends on if you want to do historical/mythic golems (big clay dude with the name of God written on his forehead, keeps him alive) or more modern golems, which suit the DFRPG's definition of a golem better (a big hunk of mortal-world-stuff with an animating spirit, typically an elemental, caged inside of it and keeping it animated. the barrier that keeps the elemental in has the additional effect of keeping all other magic out. The mythical Golem has more of a "holy" bent to him, while the modern ones are a bit more multipurpose. Golems can be pretty versatile depending on how esoteric you're willing to get with it. Iron Golems, to use the above example, are typically big suits of armor, which is fine. However, don't think "animated armor". Think about those big metal eagles on the side of the Chrysler building. Think about a gigantic, poison-ink-breathing metal kraken that you reshaped a submarine into. Think about Iron Man. Think about Pacific Rim.

Well, that was my two-cents.

While very good idea, I feel it's redundant to have projection and ritual. The whole point of Thaumaturgy is to never need to pay for any powers, provided you have the time prepare them, when needed.

My understanding of Bob's skull from Ghost Story and Cold Days is that it is a sanctuary, acting as a sort of pocket Nevernever domain controlled (and powered) by Bob.  This would mean that the skull is closer to being an Item of Power or Enchanted Item as opposed to the target or an active ritual.  Also Bob has taken shelter in other, non-magical things from daylight (IIRC a gun barrel in Changes) for brief periods.

Keep in mind with golems and other constructs, the creator needs to include some sort of provision for the construct to obey the creator's commands, or else have some form of at least limited intelligence and something to keep the construct within behavior parameters that the creator specifies.  Without these, a golem or construct will either just sit/stand there and do nothing, or else might decide to do something on it's own which likely wouldn't be what the creator wants.

A circle or a Threshold would disrupt the ongoing ritual which would provide or control the above 'programming'.

It is mentioned in YS that Bob's skull is a enchanted item that stores his power. Using the same principles, you can make a "moving skull" depending on the body (that's what I suggest at OP post). Of course, to create it in the first place, you need something akin to Thaumaturgy crafting.

It all depends on what makes your golem tick. If it is actually a magical robot, a circle will shut it down, no question about it.

But what if you have a Bob like entity at the heart of your golem? He could easily work the thing even inside of a circle, and he would be protected inside the golem. And he wouldn't need any continued commands, he can think for himself. Now another question would be, could he break the circle? We know from Harry, that breaking a circle doesn't just require a physical act, but an effort of will, too. That's why Binder's gentlemen can't break the circle, for example.

Though granted, a golem like that feels much more like its own character concept than part of a master/golem concept. Anyway, a lot of possible compels to be had, I guess.

I don't know about will, but if we think the circle as a prison ward, if you hit it hard enough with your fist, you will get out. Why else demons attack your circle when you summon them? And they have even less free will.

Indeed, if a golem is built like a Wardhound, it is basically a magical robot.  Note though that have a golem 'piloted' by a self-aware entity like a spirit that is 'bound' into the golem also can run into a problem, because the Binding tying the entity to the golem would also be impacted by the circle.

An entity 'piloting' a golem without the Binding to restrict or force the entity/golem's actions would actually be closer to having an entity possess and empower a physical object, and therefore I wouldn't really consider something like that a golem, or use any construct-type rules to build it.

I remember Wardhounds from Summer Knight but I can't recall what they are exactly. How do you define a magical robot?

[Magicpockets]

While very good idea, I feel it's redundant to have projection and ritual. The whole point of Thaumaturgy is to never need to pay for any powers, provided you have the time prepare them, when needed.

Good luck finding any DM who will let that fly. Most will only allow you to generate effects measurable in shifts. E.g. instead of giving you Inhuman Strength for a duration, you will have an X shift effect that substitutes your ability to lift/break things.

If you do find someone who will allow you actual power emulation without paying, let me know. It'll be wizard abuse time!

[Haru]

The whole point of Thaumaturgy is to never need to pay for any powers, provided you have the time prepare them, when needed.

The point of thaumaturgy is to be able to cast spells. I would definitely not allow you to use thaumaturgy as an "I don't need to buy any other power" thing.

I'm pretty lenient when it comes to allowing temporary powers, usually. I'll even allow buying them for free tags, if that free tag is something that fits the power you want to take (no, not all aspects are created equal here). If you have a half decent justification for it, and you can pay for it, go nuts. But there are 2 caveats to this. First, you get to take a new power once as a temporary power. If you want to use that power more than once, you are going to have to buy it permanently. Second, if your character concept is "guy who can switch out powers", the temporary power rule is not the one I am going to use. That's what modular abilities is for. And even with modular abilities, I will not let you just do anything, you'll still need an explanation for every power you take.

[Blk4ce]

Apparently, I was misunderstood.

E.g. instead of giving you Inhuman Strength for a duration, you will have an X shift effect that substitutes your ability to lift/break things.

It's the same thing you know, you just flavor it differently. But you would need at least 2 or three rituals to emulate that power, something impractical.

The point of thaumaturgy is to be able to cast spells. I would definitely not allow you to use thaumaturgy as an "I don't need to buy any other power" thing.

I'm pretty lenient when it comes to allowing temporary powers, usually. I'll even allow buying them for free tags, if that free tag is something that fits the power you want to take (no, not all aspects are created equal here). If you have a half decent justification for it, and you can pay for it, go nuts. But there are 2 caveats to this. First, you get to take a new power once as a temporary power. If you want to use that power more than once, you are going to have to buy it permanently. Second, if your character concept is "guy who can switch out powers", the temporary power rule is not the one I am going to use. That's what modular abilities is for. And even with modular abilities, I will not let you just do anything, you'll still need an explanation for every power you take.

Indeed, I was talking about temporary powers. Say I want the ability to fly. You cast the appropriate ritual (air riding, gravity manipulation, whatever) and add shifts for duration to last a few days. The ability to fly would only last as long as I kept fueling the ritual every week.
I agree though, that different powers need different shifts to pull out.

[Taran]

If you're going to fly every session, you'd need to buy the power.  Unless, of course, you needed a pegasus wing to fuel the spell.  In that case, good luck finding the materials you need every week.  And someone's going to be pissed that you're hunting down all those pegasi.

[Haru]

For temporary powers, you have to pay a number of fate points per scene equal to the refresh the powers would cost you. That's going to be all kinds of pricey. Even if you allow tags to pay for it instead of fate points, which I am for, you won't be able to keep that up. Especially since I wouldn't allow just any old aspect to be tagged, it needs to be an appropriate aspect, something that actually has to do with the power and that is somewhat hard to come by.

It's like Taran said. If you want to temporarily take the "Wings" power to get up a mountain, for example, I have no problem with that. Get the ingredients, do the spell, done. But if you want to keep the power, so you can fly around for a long time, you are going to have to buy the power from your regular refresh. You can still justify buying the power with a ritual you are keeping up, but the ritual itself will not grant you the power for long. If it is part of your character concept, it should be paid for with refresh. Otherwise you could have all the powers in the book and only pay 3 refresh for thaumaturgy. That's going to be out of whack pretty fast.

The difference between taking a strength power with a ritual and doing a skill replacement ritual for a strength task is basically the other side of this. If you only need the strength for one application, the temporary power solution would be too much, so you just go for solving your one problem and are done. If you'll need it longer, you can take it for the scene.