how does sponsered magic work

[vultur]

If Soulfire becomes relevant in my game (it might), and I haven't sat down and done a bigger rework of Sponsored Magic as a whole, I think I'm gonna use that rewrite right there (with the possible addition of satisfying at least some "Holy" catches). It feels a lot closer to what we've seen in the books after Small Favor.

Thanks!

And, yeah, it probably should satisfy "holy" Catches. But I'm not sure that needs to be a separate "power" of the Sponsored Magic, just as fire Evocation satisfies fire Catches without a special cost.

[Hick Jr]

I actually love that rewrite, vultur. But what about Soulfire's "degrade all Toughness one level" effect?

[blackstaff67]

I actually love that rewrite, vultur. But what about Soulfire's "degrade all Toughness one level" effect?

Harry's had at least one fight with critters that though not vulnerable to "Holy" catches were still affected by Soulfire and had Toughness degraded, so I'd keep that.  Nothing at all to do with my own PC possessing it, really.  That said, for -5 Refresh, it ought to do that.

While we're on the subject, if Soulfire degrades Toughness (reducing the Armor value of the target) does it also ignore the extra boxes of physical stress capacity?

[Taran]

yup.  You're considered to have the toughness power 1 level lower, so you'd drop the two last boxes.

[Blk4ce]

To slightly derail the subject, a character whose sponsor is an ancient god of the outer gates, what powers would he have? I was thinking something like an Outsider Knight.

[Taran]

Hick Jr has made piles of sponsored magics.  There's an Outsider one he made...I'll try to find it for you.

Here it is:

Sponsored Magic Master List

Edit:  Turns out it was Vultur who did an Outsider version:

Outsider Magic
Description: Drawing upon the power of the Outside (or a powerful Outsider patron), you're able to cast spells that destroy, distort, ruin, or harm aspects of reality (time, space, energy or matter) and induce fear, despair, and horror.
Cost: 4 refresh, 3 if you have Evocation or Thaumaturgy, 2 if you have both. You also need to either be an Outsider, or have an Outsider patron.
Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits.
Evocation - Outsider magic may be used as an element for evocation; when used this way, it produces effects similar to the entropy aspect of water evocation, and can also produce veils (as per spirit evocation). Outsider evocation effects are always obviously and profoundly weird, warping and twisting aspects of reality.
Thaumaturgy - Outsider magic can produce the effects of entropomancy, as well as psychomancy and transportation/worldwalking effects appropriate to the themes of this magic (psychomancy cannot produce beneficial or calming effects, transportation creates teleport effects, etc). It also may produce limited chronomantic effects.
Evothaum - Outsider magic can produce Outsider-appropriate psychomancy effects with evocation's methods and speed.
Other Benefits - Outsider magic provides a +1 power bonus on evocations (not evothaum) which directly cause destruction or harm.

[blackstaff67]

That almost begs the question whether or not such a Knight would have Lawbreaker (7th) stunts.

[narphoenix]

That almost begs the question whether or not such a Knight would have Lawbreaker (7th) stunts.

It's almost immaterial. You're almost certainly not going to be a PC anyway, and the White Council (probably all of it) is going to gun for you ASAP the instant they find out. Combined with the fact that Outsiders are easy for a Wizard to detect, and...

[Blk4ce]

That depends whether he was a wizard prior and if he took the mantle willingly.

It is my earnest belief that everything can be a PC. That said, imagine the interactions of a Warden with an Outsider Knight: they would be too busy killing off each other to care about the campaign .

As I read in the thread the extra benefit would be more appropriate to spec it as hellfire. And why only psychomancy gets Evothaum? Is there a rule that we can't put more than one Evothaum? Seems wierd.

[Quantus]

I dont think Soulfire is or should be anything Fire-specific (name notwithstanding) in terms actual effect, though cosmetically its fine.  Harry just happens to have used it to juice his Fire evocation a lot more than he has bothered to get very creative/experimental with it.  I dont think a water or earth-magic user would have any more or less utility out of it.

[Taran]

My "water mage" has soul-fire and it seems very fitting.  So, I agree with Quantus.

[vultur]

I actually love that rewrite, vultur. But what about Soulfire's "degrade all Toughness one level" effect?

I'm not sure what in the novels it's really based on...  Harry's used it against Denarians (vulnerable to holy already) in SmF, naagloshii (who knows...and it gets out of the soulfire-noose anyway) in TC, Red Court Vamps (vulnerable to holy already) in Changes, Outsiders (some may be vulnerable to holy per the RPG) in CD... what am I missing?

I can't remember GS very well, does he use it against something non-holy-vulnerable to massive effect there?

But yeah, we could add that, making it -5 as in the RPG book.

 

I dont think Soulfire is or should be anything Fire-specific (name notwithstanding) in terms actual effect, though cosmetically its fine.  Harry just happens to have used it to juice his Fire evocation a lot more than he has bothered to get very creative/experimental with it.  I dont think a water or earth-magic user would have any more or less utility out of it.

They wuldn't. What the fire reference in my rewrite means is that if you have Soulfire and not Evocation, it acts mechanically like Channeling (Fire) when used for evocation. This seemed appropriate to me because of the purifying connection.

[Quantus]

They wuldn't. What the fire reference in my rewrite means is that if you have Soulfire and not Evocation, it acts mechanically like Channeling (Fire) when used for evocation. This seemed appropriate to me because of the purifying connection.

Thats the bit that doesnt make any sense to me.  Any "purification" seems to be just a function of the Holy aspect.  But I dont see why a non-fire use of it would give it any of the Fire-specific benefits.  Would a Water Wizards Soulfire backed spell offer both the Fire Purification aspect and the Water's Grounding aspect?  How about the apparently non-elemental uses, like the Bigsby hand of Smash?  I wouldnt have expected that to have any "Purification" effects. 

My point is just that Soulfire is not actually in any way like Fire, specifically.  Hellfire might have been a different story, being metaphysically unstable and prone to loss of control like fire.  If you wanted Soulfire to augment that aspect of Fire, Id suggest a more general statement that Augments each elements' individual aspect. So Fire gets increased Purification, Water gets increased Magical inhibition (or perhaps immunity to such), Earth allows for larger volumes of energy to be grounded and dissipated, etc. 

But it is also worth noting that the Magically Purifying aspect of Fire is supposed to be an effect of non-magical fire, not everything Harry slings.  Otherwise it would instantly "purify" any shield somebody might like to use, and basic water manipulation would like-wise be anti-magic for all intents and purposes.

[vultur]

Thats the bit that doesnt make any sense to me.  Any "purification" seems to be just a function of the Holy aspect.  But I dont see why a non-fire use of it would give it any of the Fire-specific benefits.

It wouldn't.

Would a Water Wizards Soulfire backed spell offer both the Fire Purification aspect and the Water's Grounding aspect?  How about the apparently non-elemental uses, like the Bigsby hand of Smash?  I wouldnt have expected that to have any "Purification" effects. 

That's a different issue, since those characters have Evocation as well. Harry's smashing hand was a Force (Spirit Evocation) spell boosted by Soulfire, not a pure Soulfire spell. Similarly for the water mage example - that would be a Water Evocation spell boosted by Soulfire (so no, it wouldn't likely be used to "purify" like a fire spell).

The fire reference explains what it does if you don't have Evocation also.

EDIT: We haven't actually seen a pure Soulfire use in the books at all. But if it's going to be a full Sponsored Magic, it has to do something if used for Evocation/Channeling by itself, and fire seemed the best choice.

YS even says

In evocation, soulfire functions most like the element of fire (though it’s possible other element equivalents may exist).

But it is also worth noting that the Magically Purifying aspect of Fire is supposed to be an effect of non-magical fire, not everything Harry slings.

It does apply to magically evoked fire also -- Harry says (in TC) that's why Wardens like to use fire.

As for why it doesn't cancel out shield spells and such - I don't think it's as simple as fire being an universal anti-magic. More that things destroyed by fire are destroyed on the magical level as well as the physical one. It doesn't mean that contact with fire turns off magic.

EDIT: And YS says "Subtlety with fire is rare, but those who can combine the two take advantage of its purifying properties."

[Magicpockets]

That depends whether he was a wizard prior and if he took the mantle willingly.

It is my earnest belief that everything can be a PC. That said, imagine the interactions of a Warden with an Outsider Knight: they would be too busy killing off each other to care about the campaign .

As I read in the thread the extra benefit would be more appropriate to spec it as hellfire. And why only psychomancy gets Evothaum? Is there a rule that we can't put more than one Evothaum? Seems wierd.

Aren't the Outsider pure evil though? I mean,

(click to show/hide)

Summer and Winter team up to keep these guys out.