Kerberos Club Skill Power Tiers in DFRPG

[zcthu3]

Inhuman Strength might be 7 stunts for the price of 2, but it fits in harmoniously with the rest of the game. Its existence doesn't mess with the assumptions that other abilities rely on, and it doesn't make many Stunts obsolete.

Also, the discount is for being a Power and taking away the Pure Mortal bonus. Linking something to your High Concept is free, it shouldn't be considered a cost.

I'm still not seeing how this power is any less harmonious than Inhuman Strength - it works differently sure, but Inhuman Strength also makes potential stunts and/or skills obsolete by its very nature. The stunts in the rules are only suggestions, they are not the be-all and end-all of the game. That's why there is guidance on how to create new stunts (and powers). The existing powers are quite capable of making stunts obsolete.

For example, want to be a grappler? Which is better, taking Inhuman Strength and its bonus around grapples or a couple of grapple related stunts that try and do the same thing? Obviously it is Inhuman Strength - it gives you way more bang for your buck.

Who is better at breaking things? The character with Might +3, or the character with Inhuman Strength? Mechanically, they are the same, except the power cost Refresh and the skill didn't. Oh, and the power gives a bunch of other benefits...

Inhuman (and Supernatural etc.) Strength is a way of getting a high "Might" score without increasing the Might skill. Inhuma Speed gives you a similar bonus to Athletics - it makes you better in some situations without having to put the points into Athletics.

What I am suggesting is a way of getting an effectively high skill, without the skill points. It is just "generic" rather than linked to a set use of a skill.

Which brings me to the bit that you appear to be missing about the link to High Concept - I am not saying it is a "cost" in a mechanical sense. I am saying it is a pre-requisite to take the Power. By making it link to High Concept the Extraordinary skill has to be a core component of your character concept. It is not a power that people will just pick up "because" it is cool, particularly if the refresh cost is costed correctly.

Yes. But even Extraordinary Great is better on average than Epic. Epic is the highest skill any canon NPC has, and it's unlikely that anyone will take a tier upgrade for a skill below Great. So...yeah.

Two things on this:

Firstly, the fact that this Power makes someone the equal of someone with an Epic skill is the point of the Power; the Power is for those that are supernaturally "better". They are different ways of reaching the same point (and the Power is less certain). One is through hard work and discipline (i.e. raising the skill to Epic), the other is through supernatural ability (the Power). Characters with the Power (which is linked to their High Concept) are meant to be supernaturally talented "the best" at what they do. Their innate ability is such that they are the equal of characters that have spent years/decades/centuries mastering their abilities.

Secondly, the canon NPC descriptions are, as described in OW, based solely on what had been revealed in the novels up until that point - in fact in a number of places it notes that the descriptions are likely serious underestimations of the character's power. Given that, assuming that the Epic is "the highest skill" is probably underselling those characters. It is simply that those characters are incompletely described. Given that, whether Epic is "the highest skill" is very dependent on the game.

Sounds about right, but you'll still need to fiddle with other areas of the rules to make this work.

Such as? What needs to be fiddled with?

[zcthu3]

The Kerberos Club Skill rules almost seem like a replacement for the standard power system and that's how I'd use them. Want Inhuman Strength? Spend -2 and get 3DF+1D6 to your Fists and Might skill. Want to seduce someone like the White King? Spend -4 refresh and get 2DF+2D6 to your Presence and Deceit. A lot of the justification for the Supernaturalness (I made that word up) powers could be turned into Aspects to be tagged. Want to dish extra damage for sucking down some blood? Fate Point to tag Red Court Thug and roll your existing Inhuman Tier Fists skill. Want to Speak to the Dead? Tag Ectomancer Private Eye and roll your Tiered Alertness.

It would remove Pure Mortal as a concept since Pure Mortals would have access to Tiered skills as well. Just give them a Regular Joe Schmoe aspect and call it done. Alternately, you can come up with a way to make Pure Mortals different but still viable. I can't think of anyway off of the top of my head, but you could.

There would be some kinks to work out, but I think this would be doable. I'd remove Armor and Weapon values and go the Fate Core idea for Weapon and Armor are rolled into Skill rolls. Magic could bend the paradigm even further by still attacking the Mental Stress track and allowing you to use those skills in place of other things, but could be boiled down to a single dice roll at an Averaged Power level (I would go half of the maximum D6 plus half of the remaining DF for Rotes, everything non-Rote you're rolling for with much wilder results). Power would still go off of Conviction and Discipline for targeting. You'd just need to buy up Tier levels in the appropriate skills, which would also encompass Refinement.

Sancta is right, it will be a custom system, but you can build it using *most* of the existing rules.

I think that there is something in what you are saying in that they are two ways of doing similar things. I am just not convinced that they are... opposed... for lack of a better word. Rather I think it is the KC pricing that is out of whack - it is way too cheap for the power to be ported directly across.

Which means what should it cost. -4 Refresh for the first tier seems about right.

Alternatively, what is the Dresden Power equivalent. How would you craft a power that would fit the "I am the best swordsman that ever lived, and I don't even try" concept? Is it simply a Power like Inhuman Strength that adds bonuses to lots of different uses of the Skill?

So (and this is literally thrown together in 30 seconds so take it as such) does an Inhumanly Skilled Swordsman add +2 to using Weapons to Disarm an opponent, +1 to attacks against another swordsman, +1 to block weapons attacks, and +2 to damage using a weapon etc.?

Or do we simplify it and simply say, when using a sword you roll 3dF + d6?

[bobjob]

Ok, one last thought and then to bed.

What about using the initial skill value on the skill to be Tiered as a multiplier when determining the cost of the skill.

If you had

Extraordinary Tier (3dF+d6) = -3 Refresh
Superhman Tier (2dF+2d6) = -6 Refresh
Ascendent Tier (1dF+3d6) = -9 Refresh
(I would remove God Tier)

You want to put Extraordinary Tier on an Average (+1) skill, then it would cost 3 points (3*1=3). That same tier used on a Superb (+5) skill it would be 15.

[blackstaff67]

The Kerberos club skill thing is rather like the GURPS example the difference between a man with a Broadsword skill of 25...and another with a Broadsword skill of 18, plus some points in Off-hand Training, Blindfighting, Bad-footing Training, plus a few skill points in Two-Handed Sword and Shortsword, plus a few points in Feint and Disarm, just to be sure.  The latter example defines the master, not the former.  Why spend Refresh on stunts when you can buy up a tier?  That's my complaint.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm still not seeing how this power is any less harmonious than Inhuman Strength - it works differently sure, but Inhuman Strength also makes potential stunts and/or skills obsolete by its very nature.

Eh. It does make one or two possible stunts look weak, but even those stunts are still worth taking sometimes.

More importantly, you don't have to rewrite the rest of the game to make it work. That's what makes it harmonious.

For example, want to be a grappler? Which is better, taking Inhuman Strength and its bonus around grapples or a couple of grapple related stunts that try and do the same thing? Obviously it is Inhuman Strength - it gives you way more bang for your buck.

Nope.

The stunts are often worth taking either alongside of or instead of Strength.

Who is better at breaking things? The character with Might +3, or the character with Inhuman Strength? Mechanically, they are the same, except the power cost Refresh and the skill didn't. Oh, and the power gives a bunch of other benefits...

To be fair, the skill also provides other benefits.

Inhuman (and Supernatural etc.) Strength is a way of getting a high "Might" score without increasing the Might skill. Inhuma Speed gives you a similar bonus to Athletics - it makes you better in some situations without having to put the points into Athletics.

What I am suggesting is a way of getting an effectively high skill, without the skill points. It is just "generic" rather than linked to a set use of a skill.

I don't think the word "just" belongs there. Generic-ness is a big deal.

In canonical Powers, there's a fair bit of attention paid to which bonuses are appropriate where. Mythic Strength gives +12 to lift and break, Mythic Speed only gives +3 to dodge. Because huge lifting/breaking bonuses aren't a problem. Huge dodge bonuses are (sometimes).

There are some places where it's appropriate to hand out massive pluses. There are others where it's not. If you want to hand out massive pluses everywhere, you're gonna have to make some changes.

Which brings me to the bit that you appear to be missing about the link to High Concept - I am not saying it is a "cost" in a mechanical sense. I am saying it is a pre-requisite to take the Power. By making it link to High Concept the Extraordinary skill has to be a core component of your character concept. It is not a power that people will just pick up "because" it is cool, particularly if the refresh cost is costed correctly.

Yeah, but the fact that it's core to your concept shouldn't reduce its Refresh cost.

Firstly, the fact that this Power makes someone the equal of someone with an Epic skill is the point of the Power; the Power is for those that are supernaturally "better". They are different ways of reaching the same point (and the Power is less certain). One is through hard work and discipline (i.e. raising the skill to Epic), the other is through supernatural ability (the Power). Characters with the Power (which is linked to their High Concept) are meant to be supernaturally talented "the best" at what they do. Their innate ability is such that they are the equal of characters that have spent years/decades/centuries mastering their abilities.

I get that. The issue is that skill ratings above Superb are a really big deal. You could stat Mab with a skill cap of 8, no problem. (Some of her Powers would be really tricky, though.)

These Powers completely change that basic assumption.

Secondly, the canon NPC descriptions are, as described in OW, based solely on what had been revealed in the novels up until that point - in fact in a number of places it notes that the descriptions are likely serious underestimations of the character's power. Given that, assuming that the Epic is "the highest skill" is probably underselling those characters. It is simply that those characters are incompletely described. Given that, whether Epic is "the highest skill" is very dependent on the game.

Eh. I run an 18-Refresh game. I've only used one or two NPCs with Epic skills.

High skills are a huge freaking deal. Huuuuge.

Such as? What needs to be fiddled with?

Anything which uses a skill's passive rating, including the mechanics for stress track length and the mechanics for skills modifying each other.

Spellcasting.

Declarations.

A bunch of NPC write-ups.

The supernatural/mortal divide.

The stunt rules in general, and stunts which let you move trappings in particular.

Maybe some difficulty tables, like the Resources cost chart.

Probably some other stuff too.

[zcthu3]

Whereas I run a 16 Refresh game and the PCs are fighting supernatural beings with Fantastic (+6) skills relatively often. There is no way in my game that I would put Mab's skills at Legendary (+8) as the Queens, as forces of nature, would be "off the chart".

I think this is part of the disconnect. You've set your power level, in terms of skill levels, lower in your game than I have in mine. IMO there's nothing wrong with either play style, it is simply that, a style. Likewise the idea of skill tiers fits with our game well; the idea that some people are just supernaturally Talented in a particular area, whether it be Crafting or Science or Weapons. I am just trying to work out a way of implementing the idea that isn't just "take the Skill at a higher level" or Aspects.

Anyway, while I still think the KC power tiers are an elegant method of dealing with the idea of "supernatural talents",  taking on board the concerns expressed (still not entirely sure I agree with all of them, but I accept that the collective wisdom of the Board is against me ), how else could you emulate "supernatural talent" with a particular skill - i.e. where training is not part of the equation, but rather than are just "that good". For example the accountant who turns out to be, by accident of birth, a (super)naturally talented swordsman. When they face another supernaturally talented swordsman, they will get beaten, but against a "mundane" swordsman, their natural talent will carry them through.

Could you use a static bonus per a normal stunt/power? E.g. to use the Extraordinary [Swordsman] again, when they use a weapon against someone who is opposing them using a lower tier skill (i.e. without an applicable Extraordinary/Supernatural [Skill] power) they get +2 to their Weapons rolls (-3 Refresh; -2 for the the combat bonus, -1 extra for the broader applicability?). It achieves the same sort of effect, namely that in a competition between two equally Talented characters, the more skilled character wins, but where one character is Talented and the other isn't, the Talented character is significantly more likely to succeed.

The example above is just something I threw together (I need to head to bed), but is this a better way of doing it?

[blackstaff67]

Perhaps the problem is the fact that compared to "vanilla" mortals, supernatural critters are already that--SUPERnatural.  They already have many things going for them against mundanes, because, c'mon--your "typical" RCV would inspire quite a LOT of fear in such people (and would give even elite soldiers a tough time).  We've been doing this for an even year now and have only now reached -11 Refresh point (we started at Chest-Deep). 

And now we feel we have to make the SUPERnaturals, well, even more SUPER.  Not necessary.  If your PC's are too powerful for you to make a worthy challenge for them, then you're either going to have to change your tactics or the style of the game you're running. 

By the way, what's with the High Refresh games?  Granted we only play about once or twice a month on average, but I'm happy with the pace of advance.  I'd rather have the journey to -14 Refresh than start there.

[Taran]

It'd be nice if Pure Mortals could somehow benefit from this.

Also, since you're manipulating skills rolls (the dice) and not the skills specifically, it seems to be a power that manipulates luck/fate and probability.  Not one that improves skill.

I'm not as good at judging the balance of custom powers so my main complaint is the flavour.

+5 skill is supposed to be the apex of human ability.  Anything beyond that is already pretty much supernatural.

Aside:  worm talk.
Now that I think of it...this power might work well for Contessa....except she'd get it for any skill she put her mind to.  Kind of like a modular ability restricted to this power with a skill shuffle based on the particular task she's trying to accomplish.

I'll repost it in the Worm thread so as to not derail this one.

[Taran]

double-post

The Kerberos Club Skill rules almost seem like a replacement for the standard power system and that's how I'd use them. Want Inhuman Strength? Spend -2 and get 3DF+1D6 to your Fists and Might skill. Want to seduce someone like the White King? Spend -4 refresh and get 2DF+2D6 to your Presence and Deceit. A lot of the justification for the Supernaturalness (I made that word up) powers could be turned into Aspects to be tagged. Want to dish extra damage for sucking down some blood? Fate Point to tag Red Court Thug and roll your existing Inhuman Tier Fists skill. Want to Speak to the Dead? Tag Ectomancer Private Eye and roll your Tiered Alertness.

It would remove Pure Mortal as a concept since Pure Mortals would have access to Tiered skills as well. Just give them a Regular Joe Schmoe aspect and call it done. Alternately, you can come up with a way to make Pure Mortals different but still viable. I can't think of anyway off of the top of my head, but you could.

There would be some kinks to work out, but I think this would be doable. I'd remove Armor and Weapon values and go the Fate Core idea for Weapon and Armor are rolled into Skill rolls. Magic could bend the paradigm even further by still attacking the Mental Stress track and allowing you to use those skills in place of other things, but could be boiled down to a single dice roll at an Averaged Power level (I would go half of the maximum D6 plus half of the remaining DF for Rotes, everything non-Rote you're rolling for with much wilder results). Power would still go off of Conviction and Discipline for targeting. You'd just need to buy up Tier levels in the appropriate skills, which would also encompass Refinement.

Sancta is right, it will be a custom system, but you can build it using *most* of the existing rules.

This is a good point as well.  (sorry, I read the last bunch of posts in reverse)

[zcthu3]

Perhaps the problem is the fact that compared to "vanilla" mortals, supernatural critters are already that--SUPERnatural.  They already have many things going for them against mundanes, because, c'mon--your "typical" RCV would inspire quite a LOT of fear in such people (and would give even elite soldiers a tough time).  We've been doing this for an even year now and have only now reached -11 Refresh point (we started at Chest-Deep). 

And now we feel we have to make the SUPERnaturals, well, even more SUPER.  Not necessary.  If your PC's are too powerful for you to make a worthy challenge for them, then you're either going to have to change your tactics or the style of the game you're running. 

By the way, what's with the High Refresh games?  Granted we only play about once or twice a month on average, but I'm happy with the pace of advance.  I'd rather have the journey to -14 Refresh than start there.

We started at 10 Refresh as I had two players who wanted to have Wizards. We have subsequently got to 16 Refresh over the course of on-and-off again weekly play since 2010. We  didn't start this high. We take periodic breaks to do other things, but we keep coming back to this same game and characters. At the end of the last chapter, one character "retired" and we are looking at restarting the campaign in the new year with a replacement character. We're hardly leaping straight into a high refresh game; the characters have advanced to this level over a period of 3 years real time.

And it's not that I am having trouble challenging my players - no issues there. We are simply exploring the addition of individuals who are Talented in particular areas, and how to do it.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Problems I see with this:
This significantly changes the probabilities and mechanics of the system.  A change like this will have unintended consequences often.

There are no powers that provide a bonus to EVERY trapping of a skill.  Even the Inhumans.  And when powers provide a broad bonus to multiple skills, they do not provide the same bonus.  Mythic's +12 to breaking isn't as relevant as its weapon bonus. 

Other than Focus items (which have their own balance issues, actually) and specializations (which have to follow a pyramid), there aren't any powers that provide this much of a bonus to attack rolls.  That's a major difference.

They only way I see to balance this is if EVERY player got one.  And at that point, there's no real reason to do it, other than to have big numbers.

[bobjob]

I think that there is something in what you are saying in that they are two ways of doing similar things. I am just not convinced that they are... opposed... for lack of a better word. Rather I think it is the KC pricing that is out of whack - it is way too cheap for the power to be ported directly across.

Which means what should it cost. -4 Refresh for the first tier seems about right.

Alternatively, what is the Dresden Power equivalent. How would you craft a power that would fit the "I am the best swordsman that ever lived, and I don't even try" concept? Is it simply a Power like Inhuman Strength that adds bonuses to lots of different uses of the Skill?

So (and this is literally thrown together in 30 seconds so take it as such) does an Inhumanly Skilled Swordsman add +2 to using Weapons to Disarm an opponent, +1 to attacks against another swordsman, +1 to block weapons attacks, and +2 to damage using a weapon etc.?

Or do we simplify it and simply say, when using a sword you roll 3dF + d6?

I'd give them a bunch of sword stunts and call it a day. Not everybody will devote their refresh to those sword skills, thus enabling you to be the best swordsman. I mean, sword fighting is a skill and not really a power. You could create a custom power similar to Inhuman Strength that gives you a bonus to Sword skills if the actual benefit is supernaturally sourced (like being the scion of a sword god or something). But a game based on shifts will be thrown for whack by adding +1d6 possible shifts to a roll.

[Sanctaphrax]

Whereas I run a 16 Refresh game and the PCs are fighting supernatural beings with Fantastic (+6) skills relatively often. There is no way in my game that I would put Mab's skills at Legendary (+8) as the Queens, as forces of nature, would be "off the chart".

I think this is part of the disconnect. You've set your power level, in terms of skill levels, lower in your game than I have in mine. IMO there's nothing wrong with either play style, it is simply that, a style.

Maybe, maybe not. Hard for me to say without seeing your game.

Regardless, it doesn't change the underlying mathematical problems here.

(As for the Queens, they're certainly off the scale in terms of Powers. But they've never done anything on-screen that indicates beyond-Legendary skill.)

Likewise the idea of skill tiers fits with our game well; the idea that some people are just supernaturally Talented in a particular area, whether it be Crafting or Science or Weapons. I am just trying to work out a way of implementing the idea that isn't just "take the Skill at a higher level" or Aspects.

Anyway, while I still think the KC power tiers are an elegant method of dealing with the idea of "supernatural talents",  taking on board the concerns expressed (still not entirely sure I agree with all of them, but I accept that the collective wisdom of the Board is against me ), how else could you emulate "supernatural talent" with a particular skill - i.e. where training is not part of the equation, but rather than are just "that good". For example the accountant who turns out to be, by accident of birth, a (super)naturally talented swordsman. When they face another supernaturally talented swordsman, they will get beaten, but against a "mundane" swordsman, their natural talent will carry them through.

Could you use a static bonus per a normal stunt/power? E.g. to use the Extraordinary [Swordsman] again, when they use a weapon against someone who is opposing them using a lower tier skill (i.e. without an applicable Extraordinary/Supernatural [Skill] power) they get +2 to their Weapons rolls (-3 Refresh; -2 for the the combat bonus, -1 extra for the broader applicability?). It achieves the same sort of effect, namely that in a competition between two equally Talented characters, the more skilled character wins, but where one character is Talented and the other isn't, the Talented character is significantly more likely to succeed.

The example above is just something I threw together (I need to head to bed), but is this a better way of doing it?

Why not just use a higher skill rating?

I mean, who cares whether someone has 3+2 Weapons or just 5 Weapons?

[zcthu3]

Why not just use a higher skill rating?

I mean, who cares whether someone has 3+2 Weapons or just 5 Weapons?

I do. Because a skill of +5 all the time is different than a skill of +3 against Talented individuals, and +5 against non Talented individuals. 

Let's try explaining this a different way. There was a series of novels I read when I was much younger, I can't remember the name, where the main character was a normal joe who walked from our modern world into a magical castle that spanned multiple dimensions. When he was there, he discovered that he was actually a fantastic swordsman - not because he had trained with a sword (he'd never picked one up before the first time he had to use it) but just because that was what the Universe intended him to be. In Fate terms the character had a Skill in Weapons of +0 (he had never picked up a sword before and was trained in entirely different areas; peak skill would have been Science or Scholarship) but had a supernatural Power that made him an "extraordinary swordsman" (everyone in the castle had a Talent - his was Swords, someone else's might have been Accounting).

Now, against someone who had some training with weapons (Fair +2), but who had no supernatural Talent, he could hold his own even though he had no training - i.e. he got +2 for his Power because he was against a non-Talented individual which increased his effective skill from +0 to +2.

However, against someone who had trained (Fair +2) and who was also Talented, he was in trouble as he wouldn't get the bonus and comparatively his skill was +0! 

That's what I am trying to emulate - I am trying to get an effect where a supernaturally Talented person is a match for a skilled person, but is not a match for a supernaturally Talented person who is also trained. You can't do that by simply saying "take the skill at +5" as 1) that means they end up having to put their peak skill at +5, which is not what I want (as I want the "normal joe" who is Talented concept to work), and 2) means a supernaturally talented and trained fighter now has to be at +6 or +7 to outclass our Talented "normal joe" (which also means they have to have skills at the lower levels even if it wouldn't make any sense for the character otherwise).

[InFerrumVeritas]

That sounds like the situational and plot based bonuses that either Stunts or aspect invocations would provide, depending on how often they'd come up.

So keep your skill at 0 and buy a bunch of stunts.

Your story really only reinforces the idea that the suggested mechanic only works if EVERYONE has one.