Kerberos Club Skill Power Tiers in DFRPG

[zcthu3]

Hi all

I am looking at starting the next chapter in my DFRPG game in the new year. One of the things I've been looking at is incorporating the Skill Power Tiers from Kerberos Club. These allow skills to work on a manageable scale (i.e. you don't need to have skill levels going into the stratosphere) while allowing supernatural individuals to be better in their specific areas of focus than a mundane.

For those unaware, a Power Tier changes one of your Fate dice to a standard d6 for each tier between opposing skills. For example an Extraordinary swordsman fighting a mundane swordsman would roll 3dF+d6, while the swordsman would roll 4dF. A Supernatural swordsman would roll 2dF+2d6 v the mundane's 4dF (for simplicity, I think you can just always roll the modified dice pool - two extraordinary swordsman would still be balanced rolling 3dF+d6, although I guess the zero weighting would be off)

Obviously this is quite an advantage.

The question how much this should cost in Refresh? In Kerberos Club it is priced as follows (all balanced against Mundanes):

Extraordinary Tier (3dF+d6) = -1 Refresh
Superhman Tier (2dF+2d6) = -2 Refresh
Ascendent Tier (1dF+3d6) = -4 Refresh
Godlike Tier (4d6) = -6 Refresh

Is this reasonable? It seems cheap as a d6 should average 3-4 on a roll. I am thinking of increasing these values (and renaming them to match DFRPG), so:

Inhuman Skill (3dF+d6) = -2 Refresh
Supernatural Skill (2dF+2d6) = -4 Refresh
Mythic Skill (1dF+3d6) = -6 Refresh (or doubling would make it -8)

[OPTIONAL] Godlike Skill (4d6) = -8 Refresh (or doubling it would make it -12)

Appreciate any thoughts.

[Sanctaphrax]

Huh.

The Kerberos Club costs are clearly too cheap for DFRPG. Your revised costs look better, but they still make these tier powers really powerful.

Suppose a Feet In The Water mystical martial artist takes Supernatural Fists at Great and Footwork. They're attacking and dodging at an average of 11. 11!

So you might want to use an even higher cost. And even if you do...

You'd have to revise large sections of the game to balance that. Anyone who claims to be a combat character would need to raise the tier of their combat skills to compete, and anyone specialized in a specific skill would need to raise their tier in that skill. So you'd have to re-stat most of the game's characters.

You'd also have to revise the stunt system. A stunt giving +2 to some narrow use of a skill is pretty weak compared to a -2 Power giving (on average) +3.5 to every use of the skill. But a stunt that moves a trapping from one skill to another is much stronger when you can enhance skills like this.

Might have to revise the mortal rules too. By the canon rules, a mortal craftsman can compete with a faerie craftsman on equal terms. With this change...not so much.

You'd also have to work out how this is meant to work with spellcasting.

[Magicpockets]

Kerberos club tiers are a very bad idea for Dresden Files. It invalidates mundanes entirely and creates a very large gap between characters. You're encouraging an arms race with these rules, with everyone having to buy up tiers in their main schtick to stay competitive.

[blackstaff67]

If I want my players to roll five pluses on the dice, I sweetly smile as GM and offer them the chance to roll five Fate dice.  For some reason, they always decline...

Terribly sorry, but I'm going to keep my game simple and canon.  If players really want high rolls, they can place Maneuvers and tag Aspects. 

[zcthu3]

Thanks all. Not quite as constructive in helping pricing the Powers as I was hoping, but a useful perspective nonetheless  . It was just a thought and obviously doesn't get a lot of support around here. I just thought it was quite a good way of emulating supernaturally skilled characters (in the same way that Inhuman Strength etc. is are a way of emulating supernaturally strong characters) and without requiring skill levels that are so high that they are out of reach of characters.

[Sanctaphrax]

I think it is a good way to emulate supernaturally skilled characters. But it's also the kind of thing that only works if you build the system around it.

Every part of the game affects every other part of the game, after all.

[Magicpockets]

Introducing the skill tiers makes them pretty much mandatory for every character that wishes to contribute in that field, though. If Player A plays a character with Weapons 5 and duels against an old vampire who has Weapons 5 and Strength powers, it's a tough but not unbeatable matchup that one can win with FP investment or the right implement (such as a holy/sword of the cross). Now, if the Vampire had Supernatural tier Weapons (which would totally fit, given its experience), Player A is not even going to try to fight without a similar tier of skill; any straight fight will see him facedown in the gutter and various orifices sodomized.

If you absolutely need to implement these powers, [-3] per tier seems about appropriate. Do note that these powers encourage an arms race mentality and are likely to become a power tax.

[AstronaughtAndy]

When discussing KC skill tiers I think its worth mentioning that the game has a design your own skill system where a player can put as many trappings as he can afford into one skill.

[Taran]

I just had one thought about this idea but am not sure how well it would work.

It seems to me that, at higher refresh, Pure Mortals get the short stick.  I think this should be something that Pure Mortals could buy without losing their Pure Mortal status.  And, to further give them the leg-up on it, have the use of these powers require the expenditure of a FP. (per strike!)

In this way Pure Mortals would have more opportunities to use them and, even though, a BCV swordsman could have this ability, they'd lack the resources to use it often.

I think, then, these powers would be less "must have" powers and reduce the "arms race" everyone is talking about and would add a bit of flavour.  They become a lot less attractive when you have to use a limited resource to activate.  Especially when you're spending -6 refresh on them.  Granted, it might reduce the cost slightly - but I'm not sure how much they should be reduced.

[zcthu3]

Introducing the skill tiers makes them pretty much mandatory for every character that wishes to contribute in that field, though. If Player A plays a character with Weapons 5 and duels against an old vampire who has Weapons 5 and Strength powers, it's a tough but not unbeatable matchup that one can win with FP investment or the right implement (such as a holy/sword of the cross). Now, if the Vampire had Supernatural tier Weapons (which would totally fit, given its experience), Player A is not even going to try to fight without a similar tier of skill; any straight fight will see him facedown in the gutter and various orifices sodomized.

If you absolutely need to implement these powers, [-3] per tier seems about appropriate. Do note that these powers encourage an arms race mentality and are likely to become a power tax.

I agree that it makes those with the Power simply better in that area (it's kind of the idea after all), but if you follow your logic that the BCV should have Extraordinary skill due to its age, under the standard Dresden Rules wouldn't that simply equate to a higher skill than +5?

The difference I am going for is that skill developed via experience would be based on the skill columns. On the other hand, some people (and creatures) are supernaturally gifted in certain areas. This should be apparent in their High Concepts. So, on that basis, your BCV might be a Fantastic or better swordsman (+6) due to his age (with his powers limited largely by the BCV template) but the character who is Lancelot Reborn might only have a Weapons at (+3) but also have the Extraordinary Skill power to represent the connection to his previous self.

Regardless -3 might be in order as a cost.

[zcthu3]

I agree that it makes those with the Power simply better in that area (it's kind of the idea after all), but if you follow your logic that the BCV should have Extraordinary skill due to its age, under the standard Dresden Rules wouldn't that simply equate to a higher skill than +5?

The difference I am going for is that skill developed via experience would be based on the skill columns. On the other hand, some people (and creatures) are supernaturally gifted in certain areas. This should be apparent in their High Concepts. So, on that basis, your BCV might be a Fantastic or better swordsman (+6) due to his age (with his powers limited largely by the BCV template) but the character who is Lancelot Reborn might only have a Weapons at (+3) but also have the Extraordinary Skill power to represent the connection to his previous self.

Regardless -3 might be in order as a cost. Nothing is set in stone yet, I am just kind of playing with the idea as I liked it. I wanted a way to emulate "supernatural" skill that isn't solely dependent on aspects and Fate Points.

[Taran]

If you don't want it to cost FP's, then I'd just use stunts.

Make up a slew of new stunts and maybe have some need pre-requisites so that you have a "tree" of stunts.

Basically, the power you're proposing makes it so that your bonuses have less of a bell curve.  Using stunts to give a static +1, +2, +3 do the same thing.  Stunts basically represent a characters "skill specialization" anyways.

Take the -6 refresh you propose for "Godlike" tier.  Replace that with 6 stunts that provide bonuses and other perks for a specific skill and I think it could add up to the same.

Maybe it doesn't have the same "feel" you were going for.

[zcthu3]

Not really, but I actually thought a FP cost might not be a bad idea - although per scene (Like the Sword of the Cross' ability to ignore a Catch), not per swing - i.e. tapping into the Old Soul or whatever. Alternatively, that could be a way of further discounting it - i.e. you can purchase a cheaper version if it only applies when you tap into the memories of your previous lives.

I know that everyone is saying it is "unbalanced" but on that basis so are most of the Powers. For example, Inhuman Strength gives you a +3 bonus on Might rolls when lifting or breaking things, +1 when using Might in conjunction with grappling (and the ability to inflict a 2-stress hit), +1 to modify skills based on Might, and +2 damage in melee attacks. All for -2 Refresh.

That is at least the equivalent of 3 mortal stunts (-3 Refresh) and might be 4, so is discounted, which (according to the rules) is appropriate as they're based on pre-requisites (typically a High Concept link) and thus can be slightly more potent for their cost.

While acknowledging the "arms race" risk the High Concept links mean it always needs to be justified via an Aspect.  I also think the KC costs are far too cheap for such a power so want to break it down and work out an appropriate price. I suspect the cost will be prohibitive unless it is a central part of a characters concept. 

What I am proposing is a Power that swaps out a dF for a d6 (averaging +3-4 on a roll) for a particular skill and as a Power it must link in with the character's High Concept (which means linking it to the BCV might be difficult as "supernatural" skill is not something particularly associated with the BC, unlike mind control, strength, toughness etc. Skill via experience is better done via high skill levels).

Now, the problem with giving this a cost is that if used with a weapons skill it is effectively worth "more" than if applied to another skill as stunts only give +1 to an attack under a specific circumstance. Assuming an "average" roll of +3-4 (admittedly it can vary between rolls), then that would be worth 3/4 stunts if only applied to a single use (e.g. attacks) - that could perhaps be discounted due to the pre-requisite cost (High Concept); so -2 Refresh to replace a dF with a D6 for a single trapping (in the same way that Inhuman Might is downgraded by 1 to 2 points due to its pre-req). Extending that to cover an entire skill? Is that an additional -1 or -2 Refresh?

I would say that -4 Refresh might be an appropriate cost for the power, increasing by -4 for each "tier". Thus, being an "extraordinary" swordsman would be -4 refresh before purchasing any other powers or stunts. That is the equivalent of a brawler taking Supernatural Strength with all the bonuses it provides.

Is this about right, or still too cheap?

[Sanctaphrax]

I know that everyone is saying it is "unbalanced" but on that basis so are most of the Powers. For example, Inhuman Strength gives you a +3 bonus on Might rolls when lifting or breaking things, +1 when using Might in conjunction with grappling (and the ability to inflict a 2-stress hit), +1 to modify skills based on Might, and +2 damage in melee attacks. All for -2 Refresh.

That is at least the equivalent of 3 mortal stunts (-3 Refresh) and might be 4, so is discounted, which (according to the rules) is appropriate as they're based on pre-requisites (typically a High Concept link) and thus can be slightly more potent for their cost.

Not the same at all.

Inhuman Strength might be 7 stunts for the price of 2, but it fits in harmoniously with the rest of the game. Its existence doesn't mess with the assumptions that other abilities rely on, and it doesn't make many Stunts obsolete.

Also, the discount is for being a Power and taking away the Pure Mortal bonus. Linking something to your High Concept is free, it shouldn't be considered a cost.

I would say that -4 Refresh might be an appropriate cost for the power, increasing by -4 for each "tier". Thus, being an "extraordinary" swordsman would be -4 refresh before purchasing any other powers or stunts. That is the equivalent of a brawler taking Supernatural Strength with all the bonuses it provides.

Is this about right, or still too cheap?

Sounds about right, but you'll still need to fiddle with other areas of the rules to make this work.

I agree that it makes those with the Power simply better in that area (it's kind of the idea after all), but if you follow your logic that the BCV should have Extraordinary skill due to its age, under the standard Dresden Rules wouldn't that simply equate to a higher skill than +5?

Yes. But even Extraordinary Great is better on average than Epic. Epic is the highest skill any canon NPC has, and it's unlikely that anyone will take a tier upgrade for a skill below Great. So...yeah.

[bobjob]

The Kerberos Club Skill rules almost seem like a replacement for the standard power system and that's how I'd use them. Want Inhuman Strength? Spend -2 and get 3DF+1D6 to your Fists and Might skill. Want to seduce someone like the White King? Spend -4 refresh and get 2DF+2D6 to your Presence and Deceit. A lot of the justification for the Supernaturalness (I made that word up) powers could be turned into Aspects to be tagged. Want to dish extra damage for sucking down some blood? Fate Point to tag Red Court Thug and roll your existing Inhuman Tier Fists skill. Want to Speak to the Dead? Tag Ectomancer Private Eye and roll your Tiered Alertness.

It would remove Pure Mortal as a concept since Pure Mortals would have access to Tiered skills as well. Just give them a Regular Joe Schmoe aspect and call it done. Alternately, you can come up with a way to make Pure Mortals different but still viable. I can't think of anyway off of the top of my head, but you could.

There would be some kinks to work out, but I think this would be doable. I'd remove Armor and Weapon values and go the Fate Core idea for Weapon and Armor are rolled into Skill rolls. Magic could bend the paradigm even further by still attacking the Mental Stress track and allowing you to use those skills in place of other things, but could be boiled down to a single dice roll at an Averaged Power level (I would go half of the maximum D6 plus half of the remaining DF for Rotes, everything non-Rote you're rolling for with much wilder results). Power would still go off of Conviction and Discipline for targeting. You'd just need to buy up Tier levels in the appropriate skills, which would also encompass Refinement.

Sancta is right, it will be a custom system, but you can build it using *most* of the existing rules.