Harry's murders of Non-humans! (Cold Days spoilers)

[123456789blaaa]

I don't think the WG is the creator (at least, not how most people think of it) or the final authority. Jim however is both of those things and I think he's pretty much spelled out his views (see: the WoJ's I posted in the link). The WG and his forces may not know everything on the subject but they're pretty dang close.

I think you're off a bit with your last paragraph. IMO a better example would be if someone listened to this song and thought it was completely serious and not intended to be comedic. The person may not find the music funny at all-her emotions may be different than mine- but that doesn't change what the songwriters intended. If she says that the AoA literally singing "meaningless whisper" was not intended to be funny, I'd be comfortable in calling her wrong. 

People may have different feelings and emotional reactions to different works. I would never attempt to force them to feel differently. However, that doesn't mean their aren't correct things and incorrect things to believe about that work.

[Mira]

I don't think the WG is the creator (at least, not how most people think of it) or the final authority. Jim however is both of those things and I think he's pretty much spelled out his views (see: the WoJ's I posted in the link). The WG and his forces may not know everything on the subject but they're pretty dang close.

I think you're off a bit with your last paragraph. IMO a better example would be if someone listened to this song and thought it was completely serious and not intended to be comedic. The person may not find the music funny at all-her emotions may be different than mine- but that doesn't change what the songwriters intended. If she says that the AoA literally singing "meaningless whisper" was not intended to be funny, I'd be comfortable in calling her wrong. 

People may have different feelings and emotional reactions to different works. I would never attempt to force them to feel differently. However, that doesn't mean their aren't correct things and incorrect things to believe about that work.

I think it is more complicated than that, since we are all unique in our emotional make up, it doesn't really matter if there are "things correct or incorrect" in the eyes of morality or society in that song. What matters is how a person hears and translates those words in his or her brain.  One person can be indifferent, another, hate the song, another love the song but neither is moved by it in an overtly emotional way..  Then there is the extremes, as the odd person who listens and is inspired to become a saint, and the other person who hears the same song and is inspired to become a serial killer.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

If the WG’s team (Uriel, the swords, the KotC etc…) are truly the final authorities on free will, and if the WG is the capital C Creator,

I think Sanya's answered that one in the text; even if they are, humans don't have to choose to allow them to arbitrate.

 

When reading a fictional work and judging a character’s good or evil rating, I usually try and see if there are any cultural or world clues built into the story to help readers understand what the author intended to be good or evil.

Myself, I try not to assume the author has an agenda of that sort; exploration of questions is more fun than proselytising answers.

[123456789blaaa]

I think it is more complicated than that, since we are all unique in our emotional make up, it doesn't really matter if there are "things correct or incorrect" in the eyes of morality or society in that song. What matters is how a person hears and translates those words in his or her brain.  One person can be indifferent, another, hate the song, another love the song but neither is moved by it in an overtly emotional way..  Then there is the extremes, as the odd person who listens and is inspired to become a saint, and the other person who hears the same song and is inspired to become a serial killer.

I'm not talking about morality or society or emotions. I'm talking about statements like "the sky is blue". Pure fact.

<snip>
Myself, I try not to assume the author has an agenda of that sort; exploration of questions is more fun than proselytising answers.

I think you misinterpreted the quote. An author doesn't have to have an agenda to put their own worldview into the text.

For example, if a person writes a book about dragons where there is a detailed functioning socialist society, the author is probably not someone who believes all socialism is doomed to fail. This doesn't mean she put the society in their to show how socialist societies totally can work. Perhaps it was just neccecary for the plot to function or an interesting bit of worldbuilding flavor.

There are of course exceptions but I'm pretty comfortable in saying that they're the minority. It's not something you just tack on to another novel. You need to have it in mind from the start.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I'm not talking about morality or society or emotions. I'm talking about statements like "the sky is blue". Pure fact.

And yet I look outside my window and it seems grey to me right now.

For example, if a person writes a book about dragons where there is a detailed functioning socialist society, the author is probably not someone who believes all socialism is doomed to fail.

Why not ? It could be exploring a what-if about socialism along with a what-if about dragons.

There are of course exceptions but I'm pretty comfortable in saying that they're the minority. It's not something you just tack on to another novel. You need to have it in mind from the start.

I think you underestimate the degree to which a lot of speculative genre writers are following through consequences of where a given idea leads, even when it leads in directions very different from their own beliefs.

[Serack]

Harry was angry because the ghouls ripped apart sixteen year olds. Even with the quote from Backup, I think Harry would have done the same thing if humans had did that (though he may have not used magic to kill specifically).

It doesn't help my argument that Lasciel's shadow was also stoking his inner hulk in a bid to gain more control over him.

Musings on the morality of how to treat non-mortals (non-Free Willed beings) are blurry. Personally I think Jim himself is struggling a bit with his decision to make some creatures "always evil" and our modern time views. I'd elaborate but conveniently, I started a discussion on the subject in a thread that I started in another forum (note: on the Maeve thing at the bottom, I was later convinced that Nemesis did not give her Free Will. It only altered her nature. She was just tricked).

[Mira]

And yet I look outside my window and it seems grey to me right now.

Egads I am agreeing with Neuro!  The sky outside my house is also grey, sometimes it is gold, red, pea green [severe thunderstorms] and sometimes blue, add in about of poluntents and atitiude and it can be even black!   So what the facts are as to the color of the sky are in the eye of the beholder and the current conditions and location on the Earth...

[123456789blaaa]

And yet I look outside my window and it seems grey to me right now.

I think you know what I meant neuro. I was using a simplified example. Use any fact of your choosing in place of it if you wish.

Unless you want to argue that there are no facts. That's a line of debate that I hold no interest in continuing.

Why not ? It could be exploring a what-if about socialism along with a what-if about dragons.

It could... but it probably isn't. People who attempt to challenge themselves in this way are not the norm. Book writing is hard and then you have to do that on top of it? It's like playing pro-baseball and then hamstringing yourself to see what it's like. There are probably some people who do so but most pro-baseball players won't. 

I think you underestimate the degree to which a lot of speculative genre writers are following through consequences of where a given idea leads, even when it leads in directions very different from their own beliefs.

Perhaps. See above.

[SAZ]

Myself, I try not to assume the author has an agenda of that sort; exploration of questions is more fun than proselytising answers.

I think you misinterpreted the quote. An author doesn't have to have an agenda to put their own worldview into the text.

Yep - not quite what I was getting at. It’s been a long day, and the brain is tired. In a day or two I’ll try and revisit and rephrase it so it is clearer.

[Serack]

Ok, now yous guys have done it.

BABAM

[knnn]

Ok, now yous guys have done it.

BABAM

Ouch -- this thread has just been hit with the BABAM hammer.