Casting more spells

[molten_dragon]

The DFRPG rules do a pretty great job of modeling the universe we see in the books.  There are a few exceptions though.  One of the biggest things I've noticed lacking in the rules is a way for characters to cast more spells over time. 

In the books, as Harry progresses and becomes a more powerful wizard, his spells grow more powerful, and he's also able to cast more of them before he starts getting worn out.  The rules do a good job of modeling the former, they don't do a good job at all with the latter.  In fact, there really are no ways to increase the number of spells you can cast.  You cap out at 4 points of mental stress with 3 points of conviction (which any spellcaster should be starting with), and there are no toughness powers for mental stress like there are for physical.  And as far as I've found, there are no ways to avoid the mental stress from casting a spell.

Has anyone else thought this was an issue in need of fixing and tried to come up with ways around it?  Basically, it seems like you'd need to either be able to cast some spells (likely pretty weak ones) without taking any stress at all, or somehow increase your boxes of mental stress.

[Taran]

I've heard different PoV and one that would allow for more spell casting is to break up scenes.  Everyone's stress track clears immediately after a scene, so if you were to look at some of Harry's fights as several mini-scenes, he'd have a little time to quickly catch his breath (clear his stress track), then continue fighting.

So maybe the PC's get ambushed, there's a quick skirmish and the enemy pulls back or retreats into another room or building.  The fight continues in the next room/building but then a new enemy blows the roof apart and flies in and starts fighting both sides.

This could be seen as one big fight or, 2 or 3 separate scenes.

scene 1: ambush
scene 2: new room
scene 3: New enemy arrives on-scene.

This, of course can be done at any level(Feet in the Water or Submerged).  It just depends how drawn-out the GM wants the fights to be.  It doesn't really model a more powerful wizard being able to fire off more spells, though.

Another way could be custom stunts/powers.  They eat up refresh and could give you one (or two) extra stress slot specifically for soaking up magic.  Or model it as a mental Toughness type of thing but the catch would be "everything but my own magic"

[molten_dragon]

I've heard different PoV and one that would allow for more spell casting is to break up scenes.  Everyone's stress track clears immediately after a scene, so if you were to look at some of Harry's fights as several mini-scenes, he'd have a little time to quickly catch his breath (clear his stress track), then continue fighting.

So maybe the PC's get ambushed, there's a quick skirmish and the enemy pulls back or retreats into another room or building.  The fight continues in the next room/building but then a new enemy blows the roof apart and flies in and starts fighting both sides.

This could be seen as one big fight or, 2 or 3 separate scenes.

scene 1: ambush
scene 2: new room
scene 3: New enemy arrives on-scene.

This, of course can be done at any level.  It just depends how drawn-out the GM wants the fights to be.

That is a good point actually, we do tend to go with pretty much one scene per gaming session every time.  I'll have to bring that up.

Of course consequences heal after a certain number of scenes too.  I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

[bobjob]

I dunno, I don't necessarily see Harry casting more spells through out the books. If you count Cold Days, I could easily see his "wearing out" more along the lines of:

(click to show/hide)

the Mantle effecting him more

I did create this power that could be used for rote casting. In my opinion it's fairly balanced and would give you not only a little more versatility with your rotes (giving you access to one more rote), but also give you a little more staying power. This could even be upgraded with a version of refinement that increases the stress track or Lore value. I'll have to write that up and add it to the power.


Rote Mastery [-2]
Your mastery of rote spells is so efficient that you do not tire as easily when casting them.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Lore
Effects: 
Mind Over Matter - You gain two additional Mental stress boxes that can only be used for rote stress. These two boxes may be used before using your normal Mental stress boxes.
Arcane Intellect - Your lore is considered one step higher when determining the number of rote spells you have access to.

[Taran]

@molten_dragon: I edited my above post while you were posting, so you might have missed another suggestion I made. Mostly saying what bobjob said.

That is a good point actually, we do tend to go with pretty much one scene per gaming session every time.  I'll have to bring that up.

Of course consequences heal after a certain number of scenes too.  I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

Consequences ONLY heal if you do something to start the healing process.  I guess if you have wizards constitution, you only need time - so that doesn't really apply.  In a situation like this I'd use the guide-lines in the book.  It gives you a meta-game length to heal consequences (after the next scene, after the next session, after the next scenario etc...) but it also gives you an in-game time increment.  So a moderate needs a "week or two" before it heals. 

In a situation where you're doing mini-scenes to make combat more drawn out, you might want to use in-game timing.  The GM would just rule, you can't start the healing process until this conflict is resolved.  So even though the scene ends, the conflict is still on-going.

On the other hand, it might be neat to have characters get a second-wind and have their minor consequence of "fatigued" or "sore ankle" go away as their adrenaline kicks in, if you want a really Epic Fight.

[Tsunami]

On the other hand, it might be neat to have characters get a second-wind and have their minor consequence of "fatigued" or "sore ankle" go away as their adrenaline kicks in, if you want a really Epic Fight.

That's what recovery powers are for.
Remember, you can use those to shrug off a number(depending of the power level) of Minor consequences, as a supplemental action.
Also, those powers do allow you to recover from some consequences "instantly" i.e. at a scene change. (For example like Lara's broken Arm, during the Fight with the Skinwalker in the Raith Manor in Turn Coat)
Wizard's constitution however, does not. It gives you justification to start healing, it does not make you heal any faster.

[Magicpockets]

There's always the highly abusable tactic of using Recovery powers to negate consequences from fallout/backlash.

Only use this trick if you're in a party with some really high powered characters, though.

[molten_dragon]

There's always the highly abusable tactic of using Recovery powers to negate consequences from fallout/backlash.

Only use this trick if you're in a party with some really high powered characters, though.

I don't see how that really helps though.  Don't you still take the mental stress from casting the spell even if you botch the control roll and take fallout/backlash?

[Magicpockets]

Backlash can be physical stress, meaning you take a physical consequence which you recover via Recovery powers.

[Taran]

Backlash can be physical stress, meaning you take a physical consequence which you recover via Recovery powers.

The typical wizard doesn't have recovery. 

(click to show/hide)

But Harry probably does by Cold Days, so that might account for some extra spell-casting.  Maybe?

That's what recovery powers are for.
Remember, you can use those to shrug off a number(depending of the power level) of Minor consequences, as a supplemental action.
Also, those powers do allow you to recover from some consequences "instantly" i.e. at a scene change. (For example like Lara's broken Arm, during the Fight with the Skinwalker in the Raith Manor in Turn Coat)
Wizard's constitution however, does not. It gives you justification to start healing, it does not make you heal any faster.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying, but if you have wizards constitution, you can recover from a minor consequence after "the next scene" because you don't really need an excuse to start healing.  But if you run 3 scenes that are all the same combat, you probably don't want to allow that...but by RAW, you could...even without a recovery power. 

So technically, in scene 1 you take a minor, scene 2 you still have the minor by scene 3 you've recovered.  Given my example above, it probably doesn't make much sense.

[Elkhorn]

The RAW already provides a mechanism for this (hopefully Wolfhound is around to beef this up with details on how we've done it specifically), but IIRC it comes down to spending a Fate Point to Declare a "scene break." (For example, Invoke the BBEG's "Megalomania" Aspect, and he spends a bit monolouging while the party catches their breath).  This doesn't do anything for consequences for most characters, but it does clear stress tracks and allow the battle to continue.

[Tsunami]

The typical wizard doesn't have recovery. 

(click to show/hide)

But Harry probably does by Cold Days, so that might account for some extra spell-casting.  Maybe?

Yes, I agree with what you are saying, but if you have wizards constitution, you can recover from a minor consequence after "the next scene" because you don't really need an excuse to start healing.  But if you run 3 scenes that are all the same combat, you probably don't want to allow that...but by RAW, you could...even without a recovery power. 

So technically, in scene 1 you take a minor, scene 2 you still have the minor by scene 3 you've recovered.  Given my example above, it probably doesn't make much sense.

I think we're just agreeing with each other here.
Wizards constitution takes away the "measures need be taken to start healing" aspect of justification to heal. It does not take away the "down-time is needed" part.
During Combat there is no down-time to start healing... hence no recovery without a Recovery Power.
As we all know, the RAW in the DFRPG often rely heavily on people not trying to squeeze them for every little advantage. This is one of those cases.
Wizards constitution is not meant to provide a hands on advantage, it's more a narrative device... which is why it costs 0 refresh.

But we're starting to drift away from the Spell Endurance issue here.

I think the harsh limitations on how many spells a magic user can manage per scene are highly important in terms of game balance.
Magic is already extremely potent in the DFRPG, and if one took away those limitations it would go totally of the rails.

One way to increase the number of spell per scene i would consider, would be the sponsored magic route. Take on debt to cover the base stress of a spell. that would, theoretically, give you an unlimited number of spells per scene, but at a cost... a potentially really high cost. One Compel per free spell thrown... it's something to use in desperate situations... as it should be.

[Mr. Death]

I haven't personally run into this as a problem--I've rarely had any instances where a combat lasted long enough for the wizards to run out of stress completely, and when they have, they tend to invoke things or take consequences--remember, at 5, a wizard has an extra mental mild consequence, so they've got a total of 6 spells.

Generally, I allow them to invoke something (either a scene aspect, one of their consequences or aspects) to eat up to 2 stress, so they can cast a spell equal to their second stress box in power using the aspect as the 'source'. This is also a good way to look at, say, sponsored magics--taking debt for the same reason.

I also wrote up a little while ago a way to extend magical attacks similar to how you can extend blocks.

But all of that aside? The RAW key to a wizard's longevity is enchanted items. I have one wizard NPC who could easily go eight or nine rounds throwing off Weapon:5 and 6 single attacks, and a Weapon:4 zone attack, with an armored coat; said character, when prepared, will pretty much never have to worry about running out of stress to cast spells with.

[Taran]

I haven't personally run into this as a problem--I've rarely had any instances where a combat lasted long enough for the wizards to run out of stress completely, and when they have, they tend to invoke things or take consequences--remember, at 5, a wizard has an extra mental mild consequence, so they've got a total of 6 spells.

Generally, I allow them to invoke something (either a scene aspect, one of their consequences or aspects) to eat up to 2 stress, so they can cast a spell equal to their second stress box in power using the aspect as the 'source'. This is also a good way to look at, say, sponsored magics--taking debt for the same reason.

I also wrote up a little while ago a way to extend magical attacks similar to how you can extend blocks.

But all of that aside? The RAW key to a wizard's longevity is enchanted items. I have one wizard NPC who could easily go eight or nine rounds throwing off Weapon:5 and 6 single attacks, and a Weapon:4 zone attack, with an armored coat; said character, when prepared, will pretty much never have to worry about running out of stress to cast spells with.

These are all good points.  I use invokes for power as well.

[Sanctaphrax]

Superb Conviction gives an extra mild consequence that you could use to cast an extra spell. Epic Conviction gives you another one. If you were to houserule that Superb/Epic stress-track skills give a stress box instead of a consequence, I don't think anything would break.

If you're looking for custom Powers, there's a set of them on the wiki:

http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Inhuman+Mental+Resilience
http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Supernatural+Mental+Resilience
http://dfrpg-resources.wikispaces.com/Mythic+Mental+Resilience