Need help with character concepts for people new to TDF

[beachhead1973]

I am expanding an old campaign me and my buddy used to do as a 2-player for my regular gaming group. But the problem is that most of these guys are totally new to TDF and their fantasy background is giving them a bad taste for one of my favourite aspects of TDF; the balance. Maybe I should not have led off with; "you can't play a vampire without being a bad guy, in general" But I did. These guys are more used to "catch-less" powers, so the give and take and consequences have sort of turned them off.

The general concept for the campaign is that the two PC from the previous campaign basically had their lives ruined by the adventure and formed a security and investigation company to make ends meat. They did the strange jobs, but the mundane weirdness and dealing with the paranormal and earned a good reputation and made inroads in several circles. Then the one PC character disappeared, the remaining PC THINKS this was with the local Warden who took him as an apprentice, but no one seems to know. To fill the gap the remaining PC, became more of an NPC character, taking a few more refresh to by some limited learned skill in enchantment and warding rituals in an attempt to level the playing field between his mortal skills and supernatural threats. He also hired a collection of experienced investigators and ex-soldiers and police officers to work for him. After a few brushes with the supernatural, they all quit and the company's once fine reputation is now seriously in question.

Enter the PC's;

Plan-B, because starving to death sucks; Hire people with supernatural powers or experience and train them to be security guards and investigators.

Our remaining PC is now totally an NPC; he interviews the PCs, trains them, equips them and tasks them on jobs, unless it's a huge deal he shouldn't be in a fight with the PCs; he's got his own work to do, but the PC's might have ot back him up on occasion, usually as part of a larger mission; PC; gets a call to come pick up the boss at this location and drive him to the hospital; oh by the way; here are some leads I want you to check out.

I have one player with a really cool idea for a high concept; Magic bodygaurd: Minor Talent (Wards)= magic shield and a revolver. He puts himself between danger and the principle and fires back.

I have another idea myself for an underage street kid payed under the table. She has no supernatural powers, but living on the street, she's seen some things. As a street kid she's culturally invisible in many environments and acts as a sneaker/spy. I'm not sure if anyone in the group would be interested in that though.

Beyond that no one really has any ideas. But generally i'm pretty open, with the only caveat being that the survival of the PC cannot hinge on victimizing innocent people due to the moral code The Boss NPC lives by.

[narphoenix]

How high/low powered is the campaign? There's a difference between feet in the water and submerged.

[g33k]

I am expanding an old campaign me and my buddy used to do as a 2-player for my regular gaming group. But the problem is that most of these guys are totally new to TDF and their fantasy background is giving them a bad taste for one of my favourite aspects of TDF; the balance. Maybe I should not have led off with; "you can't play a vampire without being a bad guy, in general" But I did. These guys are more used to "catch-less" powers, so the give and take and consequences have sort of turned them off.

Honestly, it sounds a bit as if this game may not be the best match for your group...  

Try explaining that the Universe itself seems to be a moral place, that it's a natural law of the Dresden universe that gives Lawbreaker Stunts.  Tell them about Refresh seen as free will, and that monsters who have given into their hungers have lost enough will to resist, slipping from PC-worthy to mere NPCs.  Monsters cannot really change or grow, they can only be true to what they are... except, sometimes, with the involvement of  free-willed mortals.

Good luck!

There's a big ol thread with spare character-concepts...  each is anything from a few lines to a fully-statted and playable sheet with extensive backstory notes, and a couple of examples, iirc, of the whole multi-phase / shared-backstory chargen.

[Hick Jr]

Relevant link.

Ideas abound in that thread. There's also the wiki, which I find useful if i'm jonesing for a concept.

[Sanctaphrax]

What are your players like?

I find it hard to come up with character ideas for people I know nothing about.

[blackstaff67]

Yeah, my group just acquired a player that normally plays D&D; he's playing a were and while he did win (narrowly) win his first two fights (mana-a-mano and both adversaries VERY tough--pumped-up unberghoul and a Summer Fae lord, respectively) he wanted to restructure his PC's animal form.  Upon being told by him that his Fists and Athletics are 5 and 4, we told him that his were was fine; he just didn't get the concept of using Declarations to place Aspects on the scene to tilt the odds more in his favor (hint: if you're about to enter a duel with the Fae, don't ask the sorcerer for a "bag of holding" when you could ask him to drop about twenty pounds of powdered iron in the zoo where the duel is gonna take place).  Use Fists to spot weaknesses in his attack.  Shift back to human form and verb ally taunt your elf-foe (the Fae normally like to talk). 

Tell your players that assessments and declarations are your friend and can spell the difference between life or death--especially since the Dresdenverse is about taking on the things way tougher/bigger than you and winning (or at least surviving).

For my part, I vow never to hex semi's doing 70 ever again.

Edit: To be honest, this might be better in GM tips and hints.  If so, my apologies.

[MagusVulpes]

I'd agree if they're more roll-player than role-player then Fate based systems might not work out best for them, but as far as character concepts go, I'd say keep it simple at first. Start them as Pure Mortals and introduce a new concept of the game world with each adventure, just like the books do. Ex-cops, retired military, ex-cons, hackers who suspect something, they all would work for giving a solid foundation to understand how to play the game while simultaneously giving them a good footing without assigning homework. After they start to 'see' how the world works, then open up other options for them. Maybe that retired marine has Cherokee roots and rediscovers his heritage as a shamanistic shapeshifter, learning to be a theriomorph who, over time, can learn to master many different animals using totems. Maybe the ex-con has a history of violence because he has the blood of a Winter Fae in his veins and after a run in with Summer it comes to the surface... Lots of great ways to start off as a straight and 'discover' your hidden talents.

Then play the game. Do what all good story tellers do and SHOW them how to play using NPC's. Have a Social Battle with a contact or the police to 'wear' them out, give them a taste of that VERY different battle style. Then send them off after gangsters working for the restless shade of Al Capone and the Ectomancer that he communicates through. Have some mooks for them to plough through and slip an NPC in there that keeps throwing around declarations and assessments to give the mooks a leg up, you could even make said NPC be just another simple mook possessed my the spirit and use the ghost's powers to affect the terrain. OR BETTER YET, each time they target the possessed one, a different mook takes up the reins as the spirit moves to another body... Sorry... hit a creative streak...

 Rather than tell them how to use the system to their advantage, show them.

[fantazero]

I'd agree if they're more roll-player than role-player then Fate based systems might not work out best for them, but as far as character concepts go, I'd say keep it simple at first. Start them as Pure Mortals and introduce a new concept of the game world with each adventure, just like the books do. Ex-cops, retired military, ex-cons, hackers who suspect something, they all would work for giving a solid foundation to understand how to play the game while simultaneously giving them a good footing without assigning homework. After they start to 'see' how the world works, then open up other options for them. Maybe that retired marine has Cherokee roots and rediscovers his heritage as a shamanistic shapeshifter, learning to be a theriomorph who, over time, can learn to master many different animals using totems. Maybe the ex-con has a history of violence because he has the blood of a Winter Fae in his veins and after a run in with Summer it comes to the surface... Lots of great ways to start off as a straight and 'discover' your hidden talents.

Then play the game. Do what all good story tellers do and SHOW them how to play using NPC's. Have a Social Battle with a contact or the police to 'wear' them out, give them a taste of that VERY different battle style. Then send them off after gangsters working for the restless shade of Al Capone and the Ectomancer that he communicates through. Have some mooks for them to plough through and slip an NPC in there that keeps throwing around declarations and assessments to give the mooks a leg up, you could even make said NPC be just another simple mook possessed my the spirit and use the ghost's powers to affect the terrain. OR BETTER YET, each time they target the possessed one, a different mook takes up the reins as the spirit moves to another body... Sorry... hit a creative streak...

 Rather than tell them how to use the system to their advantage, show them.

Yep. Give them someplace to go.
I see (on this board and elsewhere) where people basically want to start off as Superman.

[Taran]

Feet in the Water is a good place to start because it also give them perspective on the "ladder".

If you start at submerged, not only will it be more complicated, but they'll think that Power 8 rotes and Superb+ skill rolls are the norm when, in fact, Superb is supposed to be the very limit of human capabilities.  Professional ability is rated around 3 and 4, so they should get used to the fact that most opponents and allies(normal people) are going to have skills around Fair(give or take).  And when they run into someone with Superb, they should be worried.

[toturi]

Yep. Give them someplace to go.
I see (on this board and elsewhere) where people basically want to start off as Superman.

I see (on this board and elsewhere) where people basically want to start off as Batman and work their way up to Superman. I think few people want to start off as Robin.

[beachhead1973]

I see (on this board and elsewhere) where people basically want to start off as Batman and work their way up to Superman. I think few people want to start off as Robin.

Uh; yes. I agree totally. A serious problem we had with Fate when we started was that, like other RPGs;...well here is the metaphor I commonly use; A veteran soldier in your game should have superior skills to the idiot I was just forced to graduate from his basic infantry course two months ago. PLUS; he should still be a functional human being off the battlefield. if a basic soldier IRL is competant enough in 4-6 weapons to qualify, can navigate, apply an bandage, carry a backpack a long ways, use a radio and still have a good chance of being a decent driver, 10% chance at a trade, 20% chance at knowing computers, and so on; a veteran character, should start with that and build on it.

We found it very, very hard to create a pure mortal who could fight and function out of combat in fate at less that a submerged level and even then there were glaring shotcomings.

One good guideline for any game is; simulate reality, don't bludgeon me with it. I take that to mean that a game and it's characters should feel real enough to be believable, ie/ be skilled enough to succeed on 60% of basic rolls and 80% of rolls in skills they are good at at the basic, starting level, yet not die in or right after their first fight, nor should they be sitting out the next six games if they get wounded.

This is a downfall of GURPS and A Time of War; yes....it IS all there, you need some pretty high starting buy-ins to produce a PC as capable as the human being playing him, but it can be done. Get shot though and things look bad right away and stay that way for a long time in-game.

I am going to check out the concept thread though to get some ideas. I have previously found this group cares little for pre-genned characters.

[Sanctaphrax]

We found it very, very hard to create a pure mortal who could fight and function out of combat in fate at less that a submerged level and even then there were glaring shotcomings.

Really?

Because a Submerged mortal can be the world's greatest quantum physicist, an exceptionally-skilled medical doctor, an Olympic sprinter, a millionaire, and a skilled negotiator. They can do all that with enough room left in their build for the combat skills to kill vampires in duels. And they'll have half a dozen FP to spare.

I suspect that your standards might be unreasonably high.

[Taran]

Feet in the Water is a good place to start because it also give them perspective on the "ladder".

If you start at submerged, not only will it be more complicated, but they'll think that Power 8 rotes and Superb+ skill rolls are the norm when, in fact, Superb is supposed to be the very limit of human capabilities.  Professional ability is rated around 3 and 4, so they should get used to the fact that most opponents and allies(normal people) are going to have skills around Fair(give or take).  And when they run into someone with Superb, they should be worried.

Just re-iterating what I wrote before.  +3  is professional status.  Even at Feet in the water, you can be professionally qualified at 3 or 4 skills.

[fantazero]

Really?

Because a Submerged mortal can be the world's greatest quantum physicist, an exceptionally-skilled medical doctor, an Olympic sprinter, a millionaire, and a skilled negotiator. They can do all that with enough room left in their build for the combat skills to kill vampires in duels. And they'll have half a dozen FP to spare.

I suspect that your standards might be unreasonably high.

I played a Singing Brothel Owner Pure Mortal. Using Fate Points, Sex Appeal, and Performance as my main Skill (that and I had few stunts and tons of Fate Points) I was rocking 1840s San Fran.

[fantazero]

I see (on this board and elsewhere) where people basically want to start off as Batman and work their way up to Superman. I think few people want to start off as Robin.

Even Batman had to be Bruce Wayne Once.