Confused by toughness and the catch.

[molten_dragon]

So I'm finally playing in my first Dresden Files game (which is awesome by the way).  My character is a Scion of a djinn and a mortal, and one of the things that seemed very fitting for the character was supernatural toughness, with the catch being true magic (based on the mythology that the djinn cannot be hurt by normal weapons and must be fought or trapped with magic).  Until recently it worked out fine.  Where we ran into an issue was when I fought my first magic user.

The DM and I were both having trouble wrapping our heads around how the catch interacts with the extra 4 boxes of physical stress capacity that supernatural toughness grants.

So my character normally has 3 boxes of physical stress capacity from his endurance, plus 4 more from supernatural toughness for a total of 7.  But if I get hit by magic I only have 3.  That's where we were getting confused.  So what happens if, for example, I get shot and take 3 boxes of physical stress, then get hit with a bolt of lightning for 3 more?  Am I taken out or not?  The 3 stress from the lightning would fill my 4th stress box (which isn't there when my catch is satisfied), but the physical damage I took first could fill the 4th box with no problems.

And does it matter which order I take the damage in?  If it was switched and I took the lightning bolt first and then got shot would it result in a different outcome?

[Taran]

So my character normally has 3 boxes of physical stress capacity from his endurance, plus 4 more from supernatural toughness for a total of 7.  But if I get hit by magic I only have 3.  That's where we were getting confused.  So what happens if, for example, I get shot and take 3 boxes of physical stress, then get hit with a bolt of lightning for 3 more?  Am I taken out or not?  The 3 stress from the lightning would fill my 4th stress box (which isn't there when my catch is satisfied), but the physical damage I took first could fill the 4th box with no problems.

Here's your stress box: 000 (0000)

- You get shot for 5 stress by a gun:  00X (0000)  - armour absorbs 2, leaving you with 3 stress
- You get shot for 5 stress by a gun: 00X (X000) - armour absorbs 2, leaving you with 3 stress (which rolls over to your 4th box)
- You get shot for 2 stress by magic lightning: 0XX (X000) - armour is ignored for this attack, - you take a full 2 stress
- You get shot for 3 stress by magic Lighting:  XXX (X000) Minor consequence: 1st degree burn


So when you got shot on the last attack, for lighting, you are not allowed to use your toughness boxes or your armour.  You take 3 stress but your 3 box is full and you're not allowed to roll it over to your 4th because it's magic.  Instead, you soak up 2 of the 3 with a minor consequence.  This leaves you with 1 stress which fills your 1 box.

Make sense?

And does it matter which order I take the damage in?  If it was switched and I took the lightning bolt first and then got shot would it result in a different outcome?

If you switched the order of the damage, you would be in a better situation:

3 stress from magic = 00X (0000) then;
3 stress from gun  = 00X (X000).  Since your 3 box is already full, it can roll over to your 4th (but only because it's not magic)

[Sanctaphrax]

So what happens if, for example, I get shot and take 3 boxes of physical stress, then get hit with a bolt of lightning for 3 more?  Am I taken out or not?  The 3 stress from the lightning would fill my 4th stress box (which isn't there when my catch is satisfied), but the physical damage I took first could fill the 4th box with no problems.

And does it matter which order I take the damage in?  If it was switched and I took the lightning bolt first and then got shot would it result in a different outcome?

By my reading, you're taken out if you get shot first but not if you get lightning-ed first.

If this bothers you, maybe put the extra stress boxes from Toughness at the start of the stress track rather than the end.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure whether the book actually ever says that the extra boxes go at the end. It attaches them to the right-hand side of every example stress track, though, and I generally assume that stress goes left to right.

[Taran]

If this bothers you, maybe put the extra stress boxes from Toughness at the start of the stress track rather than the end.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure whether the book actually ever says that the extra boxes go at the end. It attaches them to the right-hand side of every example stress track, though, and I generally assume that stress goes left to right.

I figured it was left to right and I didn't think you could change where those boxes went.  Of course, I'd never really considered any other way of doing it, though.  I don't think it matters as long as it's consistent.  It makes it useful for small hits and not for big hits, if you change where it is.

[Mr. Death]

By my reading, you're taken out if you get shot first but not if you get lightning-ed first.

If this bothers you, maybe put the extra stress boxes from Toughness at the start of the stress track rather than the end.

Come to think of it, I'm not sure whether the book actually ever says that the extra boxes go at the end. It attaches them to the right-hand side of every example stress track, though, and I generally assume that stress goes left to right.

Every example of someone taking stress in the game does have it going from left to right.

[GryMor]

Conditional stress boxs should probably go at the end, otherwise, the value of your base stress boxs is variable and you get some weird cases where your extra stress boxs 'matter' even when filled.

[Todjaeger]

Come to think of it, I'm not sure whether the book actually ever says that the extra boxes go at the end. It attaches them to the right-hand side of every example stress track, though, and I generally assume that stress goes left to right.

While the book doesn't directly state where the bonus boxes for Toughness go, it can be pretty well determined by how boxes are allocated based off skills (or lack thereof).  A character with no skills, stunts or powers to provide extra stress boxes has 2.  If they have Average or Fair in the relevant skill, then they have 3, etc.  That indicates that it builds from the left, and with the stress boxes that work for everything.  Also, look at the write-ups in YS for creatures/beings with Toughness powers.  The write-up for a Hecatean Hag on YS61 is relevant to this.

Also the hit allocation order would IMO not be something which the player could get to decide, but have already been decided based off the Initiative order.

[molten_dragon]

hat indicates that it builds from the left, and with the stress boxes that work for everything.  Also, look at the write-ups in YS for creatures/beings with Toughness powers.  The write-up for a Hecatean Hag on YS61 is relevant to this.

That one's kind of weird, because the way it reads, it seems like once the hag takes consequences, the toughness is gone until the consequences are gone.  It's not just that some things can bypass the toughness and others can't.

[dplanken]

Question; example Red Court vampire. Their catch is holy stuff, sunlight and their flabby bellies. How do these catches play out?

For the belly, does it need to be a physical consequence that names the wound to the belly? Or just inflicting stress while you mention you were aiming for it? And is the catch satisfied for the entire scene (you can't suddenly get the blood back in your stomach) or only for that particular hit.

For holy, holy often doesn't do damage. So I was under the impression if one player shows them a faith symbol with conviction behind it, it would satisfy the catch and other players could damage it ignoring the toughness. Or does it actually have to be a holy attack to satisfy the catch, and once again, is it for that single attack or the scene?

How about sunlight? In the books it's like they are stuck by a physical blow when they are in the sunlight, but I don't believe the sun damages a RC vamp does? How about a BC vamp?

So yeah, also a lot of confusion here about toughness and the catch.

[Mr. Death]

Question; example Red Court vampire. Their catch is holy stuff, sunlight and their flabby bellies. How do these catches play out?

For the belly, does it need to be a physical consequence that names the wound to the belly? Or just inflicting stress while you mention you were aiming for it? And is the catch satisfied for the entire scene (you can't suddenly get the blood back in your stomach) or only for that particular hit.

For holy, holy often doesn't do damage. So I was under the impression if one player shows them a faith symbol with conviction behind it, it would satisfy the catch and other players could damage it ignoring the toughness. Or does it actually have to be a holy attack to satisfy the catch, and once again, is it for that single attack or the scene?

How about sunlight? In the books it's like they are stuck by a physical blow when they are in the sunlight, but I don't believe the sun damages a RC vamp does? How about a BC vamp?

So yeah, also a lot of confusion here about toughness and the catch.

For the bellies, I do it one of two ways: Either they can invoke the Red Court Vampire's high concept for it, or inflict a Moderate or worse consequence for it. It lasts until it's healed.

Sunlight, I would attach a weapon rating to it. Holy stuff is probably more for compels, but you could also attach a weapon rating to it.

[Taran]

I'd also let the belly be hit if someone set a maneuver in advance, like "exposed belly".  Then someone else could tag it to have access to the catch.  As long as it lasts (and it's reasonable that it's still sticky) people can use FP's to invoke it.