Making magic stick against Outsiders [series spoilers]

[peregrine]

Pretty sure Denarians don't have soulfire.  And that most of them aren't wizards.  Which is kind of required to use soulfire.

The demons had soulfire, now they have hellfire.  Because they're demons, and you get one or the other.

[Serack]

The demons had soulfire, now they have hellfire.  Because they're demons, and you get one or the other.

Source WoJ:

“Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are.

[kdx7214]

Lash said Circumstances of his birth, more so than just the date IIRC. We can't consider the year as significant,  not yet anyway, since even JB is having a hard time deciding on his year of birth. We do know his date of birth, who his parents were, possibly even approximate time of birth if my own theory holds based on events in BR and how Maggie died either while giving birth or just after.

We don't yet know for certain what other Circumstances may have played into this, but I believe that there must have been others.

Well, we know from CD that on Harry's birthday the immortals reacquire (or fight for, or whatever) the power they wield.  I would guess that Harry being born on Halloween plus some other circumstances around said birth resulted in the Starborn status.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Lash said Circumstances of his birth, more so than just the date IIRC.

"Complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances" seems to me to pretty much rule out it being the date alone.

(Always presuming Lash isn't lying.)

[Mira]

ya it seems like Harry's time as a ghost was a major learning experience for him. he learned some of exerting his control over his surroundings like what was pointed out in the excerpt. so ya not only his starborn but his training in GS helps.

  Very much so, especially, soul fire, he seemed to have gain a deeper understanding of what it is, and thus how to use it to greater effect. 

Fighting with his own reality Outsiders fits, because in Cold Days that is just what Harry does.  When Sharkface goes into his head, Harry counters with the image of himself as a really bad ass wizard, with staff pulling down power from the sky and the power of the whole island behind him, names his name and demands Sharkface's name in return.. Gets it, then kills him.

[Serack]

"Complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances" seems to me to pretty much rule out it being the date alone.

(Always presuming Lash isn't lying.)

As I said in Reply #5, I associate Lash's description of how Harry gained the "potential to wield power over outsiders" with Bob's description of a "conjunction"

    "Right then!" Bob said.  "The only way to kill an immortal is at certain specific places."
    "And you know one?  Where?'
    "Hah, already you're making a human assumption.  There are more than three dimensions, Harry.  Not all places are in space.  Some of them are places in time.  They're called conjunctions."
    "I know about conjunctions, Bob," I said, annoyed.  "When stars and planets align.  You can use them to support heavy-duty magic sometimes."
    "That's one way to measure a conjunction." said the skull.  "But stars and planets are ultimately just measuring stakes used to describe a position in time.  And that's one way to use a conjunction, but they do other things, too."

To me there is a lot of "you're a mortal that can hardly encompass this concept" handwaving going on here that makes me think that if my hunch that the "conjunction" idea and the "complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances" are related in some way, then the "starborn conjunction" might have been about something more than just a date.

By the way, I highlighted the "when stars and planets align" line of that quote, because maybe a starborn conjunction involves a period of time like when "Saturn is in the constellation Badger and Jupiter is in 'Retrograde Motion'" or some such.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

By the way, I highlighted the "when stars and planets align" line of that quote, because maybe a starborn conjunction involves a period of time like when "Saturn is in the constellation Badger and Jupiter is in 'Retrograde Motion'" or some such.

I can totally see that as necessary, but I don't see that it can be sufficient unto being a starborn, because we know Elaine is six months or so younger than Harry, and we have that WoJ that she's a potential starborn, and an astronomical conjunction covering that long a span of time being the only relevant condition would give us starborn by the millions.

[Serack]

I can totally see that as necessary, but I don't see that it can be sufficient unto being a starborn, because we know Elaine is six months or so younger than Harry, and we have that WoJ that she's a potential starborn, and an astronomical conjunction covering that long a span of time being the only relevant condition would give us starborn by the millions.

Agreed, that's why I used the term "involves."  Hmmm, a list of things that might need to be in the cauldron where the "Complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances" mix together to form a potential Starborn

• Some unidentified celestial event
• One Wizardly parent
• One "good" yet mundane parent
• The dubious attention of a Walker during the event of the birth (The curse that killed Margret)
• Geological location/lay lines?
• Travel during gestation (picture of pregnant Margret at the Lincoln Memorial)
• Binding to a special piece of silver (IMO something special and yet to be revealed is going on with that amulet, and Elane has one too)
• Heavenly attention?
• Hell's attention?
• W[R]ampire attention? (I forsee some significance with their tie-in to "Empty Night")
• Fae Attention?
• Something the Gatekeeper provided?
• Suggestions?

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Agreed, that's why I used the term "involves."  Hmmm, a list of things that might need to be in the cauldron where the "Complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances" mix together to form a potential Starborn

• Some unidentified celestial event
• One Wizardly parent
• One "good" yet mundane parent
• The dubious attention of a Walker during the event of the birth (The curse that killed Margret)
• Geological location/lay lines?
• Travel during gestation (picture of pregnant Margret at the Lincoln Memorial)
• Binding to a special piece of silver (IMO something special and yet to be revealed is going on with that amulet, and Elane has one too)
• Heavenly attention?
• Hell's attention?
• W[R]ampire attention? (I forsee some significance with their tie-in to "Empty Night")
• Fae Attention?
• Something the Gatekeeper provided?
• Suggestions?

I suspect that "mother dying in childbirth" may be an ingredient.

[kazimmoinuddin]

could harry have this power due to maggie sacrificing herself to protect harry, and making the deal with lea?

 The swords seem like they use the power of soul fire to fight the badness. if soul fire is the same as hell fire, just what fuels it, does that mean possibly the swords could channel hell fire.

[Mira]

Quote from: knnn on September 10, 2013, 06:45:58 PM

    2) Lash's comments seem to indicate that "someone else" was manipulating things - i.e. giving Maggie the strength to leave Raith.  Maggie may have been aware that she was a pawn and likely became a willing participant in the plan, but she apparently wasn't the prime mover.

  In his journal in Turn Coat, Eb says that very thing...
page378 Turn Coat hard cover

I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate--or at least a higher power of some sort, attempting to arrange events in our favor despite everything we, in our ignorance, do to thwart it.

So... Odin, Mab, Uriel [his boss is God] Titania, take your pick or take all of them, higher powers do have their fingers in the pie.

[vultur]

Agreed, that's why I used the term "involves."  Hmmm, a list of things that might need to be in the cauldron where the "Complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances" mix together to form a potential Starborn

• Some unidentified celestial event
• One Wizardly parent
• One "good" yet mundane parent

As another possibility, apparently Maggie Sr turned her life around after meeting Malcolm. Maybe it's that dramatic change, as an expression of free will, that's critical -- especially if starborn powers are will based.

[vultur]

Also, this is a great theory!

The "redefining reality" bit explains why Fae can fight Outsiders with swords and stuff (swords don't require imposing your will on reality 'magically'), which didn't really make sense in my "they're just too alien to be affected" theory.

Two thoughts:

1) The WoJ says that Elaine and Harry were born a couple of months apart.  This weakens the argument that Halloween is a key component/

2) Lash's comments seem to indicate that "someone else" was manipulating things - i.e. giving Maggie the strength to leave Raith.  Maggie may have been aware that she was a pawn and likely became a willing participant in the plan, but she apparently wasn't the prime mover.

[Serack]

This topic was only recently locked, and someone mentioned a desire to comment so I am unlocking it.  Past experience is that such unlocks only last about a day anyways.

[wizard nelson]

Subverting a power source, or adding one known to effect outsiders makes it stick too. In CD sharkface obsorbs Harrys force blast but, and it would seem unintentional, as soon as winter starts reacting to the knowledge of outsiders it hurts. Besides the Artic fire more telling is that even not drawing on magic his fist coats with Ice. I speculate Wizards who use faith magic or call upon powerful entities might effect them too.