Powers for the really high-end guys

[vultur]

What cost would a Power be that let you cast two evocations in one exchange, like Ivy can? Maybe something like...

Dual Spellcaster [-?]
Your mastery of magic is so complete that you can perform two spells at once.
Musts: Your high concept must justify extremely exceptional magical skill. You must have Evocation.
Benefit: You can cast two evocations in one exchange, but when doing so, you take a -3 penalty to Power and Control for both.

And what about this?

Reality Alteration [-?]
You can perform extremely powerful and complex spells by will alone.
Musts: You must have a high concept reflecting extreme supernatural power (e.g. a Faerie Queen, Dragon, etc.)  You must have both Evocation and Thaumaturgy.
Benefit: You can cast all Thaumaturgy with Evocation's methods and speed.


I'm also not sure what really high end physical characters should have. Beyond a certain point, it seems like magic starts to really outstrip other characters. I mean, if I spend 20 Refresh on physical combat, I can get:
Mythic Speed [-6]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
Item of Power [+1]: throwing axes
  True Aim [-1]
  infinite ammo [-1] (I guess, if Breath Weapon is -2 and it includes Weapon:2, range, and infinite ammo)

Which gives me always-first initiative, Weapon:7 or Weapon:8 attacks at range, at Weapons+1. I could add in an accuracy stunt (if it would stack with True Aim), and a stunt for Weapons defense against bullets and stuff... (or just have Athletics about as high as Weapons). Hulking Size, I guess, but its benefits, to me, barely balance out its detriments... it seems pretty poor for [-2] to me.

Whereas a spellcaster can just keep spending Refinements, with the only caps being equal to Lore on both focus items and specializations...

[Mr. Death]

Ivy, mechanically speaking, wasn't really casting multiple spells at once--mechanically, she was just casting one massive block.

As for the second one, honestly, it's something you can kinda do just with high stats, provided you have the Lore to cover the knowledge of the spell, and can pull enough shifts of power and control them all at once without your head popping.

And...honestly, I'm of the opinion that magic is supposed to outstrip physical ability past a certain point. But stunts and just plain high stats, along with healing abilities and extra consequences, would help balance things.

[bobjob]

I've been toying with this spell casting power, but am still playing with it. I could see this working well with whatever you decide for Dual Spellcasting.

Rote Mastery [-2]
Your mastery of rote spells is so efficient that you do not tire as easily when casting them.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Lore
Effects: 
Mind Over Matter - You gain two additional Mental stress boxes that can only be used for rote stress. These two boxes may be used before using your normal Mental stress boxes.
Arcane Intellect - Your lore is considered one step higher when determining the number of rote spells you have access to.

[Hick Jr]

I'm not really sure how to price that first one, because it becomes exponentially more powerful as your Evocation gets more powerful.

The second one, I would call -3 or 4.


Also, speaking as a player in a high-refresh game that you're running, vultur, this thread worries me.


(In a good way.)

[Sanctaphrax]

Dual Spellcaster [-?]
Your mastery of magic is so complete that you can perform two spells at once.
Musts: Your high concept must justify extremely exceptional magical skill. You must have Evocation.
Benefit: You can cast two evocations in one exchange, but when doing so, you take a -3 penalty to Power and Control for both.

I don't really like this. Evocation already has spray attacks, after all. And if you're gonna make multiple action rules, I think it's a shame to limit them to spellcasting.

That being said, this looks like a weak 1 Refresh Power to me.

Filling two stress boxes for two accuracy 7 weapon 7 attacks seems worse than filling one stress box for one accuracy 10 weapon 10 attack. I can see some uses for this since you can combine multiple different types of action, but still.

Reality Alteration [-?]
You can perform extremely powerful and complex spells by will alone.
Musts: You must have a high concept reflecting extreme supernatural power (e.g. a Faerie Queen, Dragon, etc.)  You must have both Evocation and Thaumaturgy.
Benefit: You can cast all Thaumaturgy with Evocation's methods and speed.

I'd say 2 Refresh.

I'm also not sure what really high end physical characters should have. Beyond a certain point, it seems like magic starts to really outstrip other characters. I mean, if I spend 20 Refresh on physical combat, I can get:
Mythic Speed [-6]
Mythic Strength [-6]
Mythic Toughness [-6]
Item of Power [+1]: throwing axes
  True Aim [-1]
  infinite ammo [-1] (I guess, if Breath Weapon is -2 and it includes Weapon:2, range, and infinite ammo)

Which gives me always-first initiative, Weapon:7 or Weapon:8 attacks at range, at Weapons+1. I could add in an accuracy stunt (if it would stack with True Aim), and a stunt for Weapons defense against bullets and stuff... (or just have Athletics about as high as Weapons). Hulking Size, I guess, but its benefits, to me, barely balance out its detriments... it seems pretty poor for [-2] to me.

Whereas a spellcaster can just keep spending Refinements, with the only caps being equal to Lore on both focus items and specializations...

Magical attacks eventually outstrip everything else simply because you can spend more Refresh on them. (And you can get +2 to hit with Refinement). The obvious solution is to write more physical attack powers. They don't have to be super-strong, but they have to stack with each other. And at least some have to affect accuracy.

(Supernatural Martial Arts is a decent example of a custom Power that raises the ceiling for physical attacks.)

Outside of attacks, though, physical stuff doesn't directly compete with magic. Speed is good for casters and brawlers alike.

Hulking Size is indeed a bit lame for combat, but the Intimidation boost is pretty strong.

I don't think Infinite Ammo is worth Refresh.

Rote Mastery [-2]
Your mastery of rote spells is so efficient that you do not tire as easily when casting them.
Skills Affected: Conviction, Lore
Effects: 
Mind Over Matter - You gain two additional Mental stress boxes that can only be used for rote stress. These two boxes may be used before using your normal Mental stress boxes.
Arcane Intellect - Your lore is considered one step higher when determining the number of rote spells you have access to.

Looks balanced-ish to me.

[vultur]

I don't really like this. Evocation already has spray attacks, after all. And if you're gonna make multiple action rules, I think it's a shame to limit them to spellcasting.

That being said, this looks like a weak 1 Refresh Power to me.

Filling two stress boxes for two accuracy 7 weapon 7 attacks seems worse than filling one stress box for one accuracy 10 weapon 10 attack. I can see some uses for this since you can combine multiple different types of action, but still.

Yeah, the goal was to cast a block and an attack, or a maneuver and an attack, or whatever.

I'd say 2 Refresh

Really? That low? I thought that was fairly major...

Magical attacks eventually outstrip everything else simply because you can spend more Refresh on them. (And you can get +2 to hit with Refinement). The obvious solution is to write more physical attack powers. They don't have to be super-strong, but they have to stack with each other. And at least some have to affect accuracy.

(Supernatural Martial Arts is a decent example of a custom Power that raises the ceiling for physical attacks.)

Good point.

[Sanctaphrax]

Really? That low? I thought that was fairly major...

You wrote Aura Of Influence, right? That's even more major, but it's 0 Refresh.

Anyway, Thaumaturgy is 1 Refresh more expensive than Ritual. It seems logical for evo-Thaumaturgy to be 1 Refresh more expensive than evo-Ritual.

And one field of evothaum is about half of what Sponsored Magic gives you for 2 Refresh if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy. So one field of evothaum is probably 1 Refresh. Which seems fair, given how useful it usually is.

[vultur]

You wrote Aura Of Influence, right? That's even more major, but it's 0 Refresh.

Ah, good point.

Anyway, Thaumaturgy is 1 Refresh more expensive than Ritual. It seems logical for evo-Thaumaturgy to be 1 Refresh more expensive than evo-Ritual.

And one field of evothaum is about half of what Sponsored Magic gives you for 2 Refresh if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy. So one field of evothaum is probably 1 Refresh. Which seems fair, given how useful it usually is.

That does make sense.

[Locnil]

Don't you already get Thaumaturgy as evocation with Soulfire though, since Soulfire gives full thaumaturgy? As an ancillary benefit, no less. Honestly it seems a rather weak 1 Refresh power to me - if I was doing it, I'd make it 0 Refresh but with some drawbacks, like taking a point of stress every time it's used or something.

For the first one, I'd make it one Refresh, since you're already taking a -3 to Control and Power. It makes spray attacks a useful action - provided you already have high control and power - which is it's main benefit IMO, but not that great. Casting an offensive and defensive spell simultaneously seems mechanically suboptimal to just casting one defensive spell with a few shifts put into duration, then letting loose with offensive spells, especially since you're paying stress for both spells. If you think this is too prone to abuse - and I can see why you'd think that - I suggest increasing the penalty (Say to -4 or even -5), and including a one refresh upgrade reducing it to -2.

And one field of evothaum is about half of what Sponsored Magic gives you for 2 Refresh if you already have Evocation and Thaumaturgy. So one field of evothaum is probably 1 Refresh. Which seems fair, given how useful it usually is.

Even with Thaumaturgy and Evocation, Sponsored Magic gives you considerably more than that IIRC.

A little late, I know, but here's my thoughts.

[GryMor]

I'd personally implement it as follows:

Multi Evoker [-1]
You may split the power of your evocations among multiple distinct effects, making a single control roll for the combined power of all effects. Power devoted to duration is shared by all relevant effects. The targeting interpretation of the control roll is split normally across the distinct attacks per evocation Spray rules.

This doesn't end up boosting pure offense/alpha strike, but should allow a WR 1 attack to be mixed in with a maneuver or block. Note, be very wary about lifting the spray splitting rule (consider power 4 split a a WR 1 direct attack and a WR 1 zone attack).

[Sanctaphrax]

Don't you already get Thaumaturgy as evocation with Soulfire though, since Soulfire gives full thaumaturgy? As an ancillary benefit, no less.

Maybe. It says "...for our current purposes consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy spells (those which are agenda-compatible, at any rate)."

It doesn't say anything about evocation's speed and methods, but maybe that's implied?

Honestly it seems a rather weak 1 Refresh power to me - if I was doing it, I'd make it 0 Refresh but with some drawbacks, like taking a point of stress every time it's used or something.

It does seem weak for 1 Refresh, but that drawback wouldn't be enough. If the drawback only applies when you use the Power, then you can just not use the power when it wouldn't be worth it. So there's no reason not to buy the Power.

To balance out a -0 Power that has an actual benefit, you need a drawback that isn't optional.

Even with Thaumaturgy and Evocation, Sponsored Magic gives you considerably more than that IIRC.

It generally gives Ritual, Channelling, evothaum, a sponsored agenda, and some other bonus.

The agenda is cost-neutral, Ritual and Channelling are subsumed by Evocation and Thaumaturgy, and the other bonus is usually worth about 1 Refresh. So 1 Refresh for the evothaum seems reasonable to me.

[vultur]

Maybe. It says "...for our current purposes consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy spells (those which are agenda-compatible, at any rate)."

It doesn't say anything about evocation's speed and methods, but maybe that's implied?

I thought this just means that instead of  Channeling + Ritual, Soulfire gives you Channeling + Thaumaturgy. I don't think it means "all thaumaturgy as evothaum".

Though I don't know why it still costs -3 if you have Evocation and Thaumaturgy, so who knows...

[Locnil]

Maybe. It says "...for our current purposes consider it to provide the full range of thaumaturgy spells (those which are agenda-compatible, at any rate)."

It doesn't say anything about evocation's speed and methods, but maybe that's implied?

It does seem weak for 1 Refresh, but that drawback wouldn't be enough. If the drawback only applies when you use the Power, then you can just not use the power when it wouldn't be worth it. So there's no reason not to buy the Power.

To balance out a -0 Power that has an actual benefit, you need a drawback that isn't optional.

It generally gives Ritual, Channelling, evothaum, a sponsored agenda, and some other bonus.

The agenda is cost-neutral, Ritual and Channelling are subsumed by Evocation and Thaumaturgy, and the other bonus is usually worth about 1 Refresh. So 1 Refresh for the evothaum seems reasonable to me.

1. Looking through the books, hmm, yes, it isn't explicitly stated.

2. How do you explain things like Cassandra's Tears then?

That said, I get where you're coming from - if made a free power, there's no reason for all casters not to pick it up anyway. Then again, my suggested drawback was just a suggestion. Maybe insetad of costing one stress, it permanently reduces your stress track by 1? After all, such control over magic can't be good for your mental health...

3. I don't think that's how the power breaks down.

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic bene- fits (page 288). Kemmlerian necromancy comes with automatic, additional specializations in necromancy: +1 to control, +1 to complexity, stacking on top of any existing specializa- tions.

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic bene- fits (page 288). Hellfire likes to inflict pain and harm, but isn’t particularly concerned about being controlled; gain a +1 to the power or complexity threshold on any spell intended to inflict stress or consequences

Benefits: Standard sponsored magic benefits (page 288). What particular flavor these benefits take depends on the nature of the place. For example, a ley-line might draw on an ancient Spirit of Decay lurking beneath the fabric of the local Nevernever, allowing entropomantic effects with evocation’s speed and methods. It might offer a +1 to control and complexity for any entropomancy as well

As shown above, since the additional spellcasting benefit is equal to a +1 control and +1 power, stacking with existing specializations, provided you already have at least three points of Refinement (+3/+2/+1) it's just as cost efficient go get sponsored magic as two more points of Refinement. Better, in fact, if your GM rules the benefits of sponsored magic doesn't count against the usual limit from Refinements. And you get all the other benefits of a sponsor. And if you already have more than three Refinements (like almost every statted spellcaster), it's always straight up better to spring for sponsored magic. So, yeah, that benefit by itself is easily worth two Refresh - the other benefits are mostly cost-neutral.

Also, there's this:

“With Evocation’s Methods and Speed”
When you see this phrase in the power sources listed starting on page 290, here’s what it means: Š
-The spell is still limited to line of sight, like evocation. Š
-The spell is cast like evocation: power first, control later, all done in one exchange. Š
-Thaumaturgy’s set of effects are broader-reaching, not constricted by the straight-line force principles of evocation. With the power source, you get access to the listed set of thaumaturgic effects (often a thematic grouping of some sort) as a viable effect of an evocation spell. So you might be able to throw together a small ward quickly, summon a minor creature extra-quick, or cast a curse of decay with the flick of a wrist. In these cases, use what would have been the complexity of the thaumaturgic effect as a guideline for the power of the evocation.

This may seem like a bit of a shell game, since the sets of mechanical effects available to thaumaturgy and evocation are pretty similar, with only a few areas of non-overlap. You’d be mostly right, but for this point: getting a broad range of effects out of evoca- tion is an exercise in creative rationalization. What the power source is offering in this specific case, then, is a broadening of what you don’t have to rationalize. It’s just quickly, easily available to your spellcaster. Combine this with a few mechanical benefits available with each source and it’s a definite upgrade to a character’s arcane options.

In the developer's own words, Thaumaturgy With Evocation’s Methods and Speed is little more than a cool bit of fluff your character gets, that is, cost-neutral. As such, making it cost a whole point of refresh is a bit much.

[Sanctaphrax]

2. How do you explain things like Cassandra's Tears then?

The -2 penalty doesn't only apply when you choose to use Cassandra's Tears. It applies to things you have no control over too.

It's a tiny tiny drawback, but the mechanical benefits of Cassandra's Tears are also incredibly tiny.

3. I don't think that's how the power breaks down.
As shown above, since the additional spellcasting benefit is equal to a +1 control and +1 power, stacking with existing specializations, provided you already have at least three points of Refinement (+3/+2/+1) it's just as cost efficient go get sponsored magic as two more points of Refinement. Better, in fact, if your GM rules the benefits of sponsored magic doesn't count against the usual limit from Refinements. And you get all the other benefits of a sponsor. And if you already have more than three Refinements (like almost every statted spellcaster), it's always straight up better to spring for sponsored magic. So, yeah, that benefit by itself is easily worth two Refresh - the other benefits are mostly cost-neutral.

Kemmlerian Necromancy provides a double share of benefits. I've noted this before, actually...Seelie Magic, Unseelie Magic, Hellfire, and the examples given for Place Of Power all give 1 Refresh of extra stuff, but Kemmlerian Necromancy doesn't conform. You've got to look at the general trend here, rather than the strongest example.

And Kemmlerian Necromancy probably doesn't ignore the pyramid. It "stacks" with other specializations, but I don't think that implies ignoring the pyramid.

In the developer's own words, Thaumaturgy With Evocation’s Methods and Speed is little more than a cool bit of fluff your character gets, that is, cost-neutral. As such, making it cost a whole point of refresh is a bit much.

That very quote calls it "a definite upgrade". That's more or less exactly the opposite of what you claim it says.

Honestly, though, I don't like that sidebar much. It leaves out a lot of important stuff that remains ambiguous, and it overstates the overlap between evocation and thaumaturgy.

[Locnil]

The -2 penalty doesn't only apply when you choose to use Cassandra's Tears. It applies to things you have no control over too.

It's a tiny tiny drawback, but the mechanical benefits of Cassandra's Tears are also incredibly tiny.

Kemmlerian Necromancy provides a double share of benefits. I've noted this before, actually...Seelie Magic, Unseelie Magic, Hellfire, and the examples given for Place Of Power all give 1 Refresh of extra stuff, but Kemmlerian Necromancy doesn't conform. You've got to look at the general trend here, rather than the strongest example.

And Kemmlerian Necromancy probably doesn't ignore the pyramid. It "stacks" with other specializations, but I don't think that implies ignoring the pyramid.

That very quote calls it "a definite upgrade". That's more or less exactly the opposite of what you claim it says.

Honestly, though, I don't like that sidebar much. It leaves out a lot of important stuff that remains ambiguous, and it overstates the overlap between evocation and thaumaturgy.

Cassandra’s Tears [–0]
Description: You are afflicted by the condition known as Cassandra’s Tears—you have a limited ability to see the future and predict the shape of things to come. But there’s a big downside: most people simply ignore or won’t believe your warnings. Musts: You must take Cassandra’s Tears or some similar variant as an aspect (because it’s going to get compelled—lots).
Skills Affected: Social skills.
Effects: Unbelievable Predictions. You are able to make precognitive predictions or receive them from the GM. This places an aspect on the “world” related to the prediction that remains until it comes true or is otherwise resolved. See the guidelines on page 324 for more details about predictions. Whenever trying to warn people about what you foresee, you are at a –2 to any attempts to convince them that what you’re saying is correct.

1. I'm not seeing how this drawback hits you even if you don't use the power. Unless you've conceded my point about compels not being cost-neutral?

2. Except, as I showed in my quotes, it's not just Kemmlerian Necromancy. It's also Hellfire and Place of Power. And since Seelie and Unseelie Magic essentially give +3 power to offensive evocations against the opposing court, they can be just as good in a game centered around the faerie courts.

And about the specializations thing - I don't think so. It gives a bonus to necromancy- just as Hellfire gives a bonus to spells that harm and the specific Place of Power gives the bonus to entropic effects. Whereas, with Refinement, you have to pick from earth, water, fire, air, or spirit. If you rule that these effects must be part of the pyramid, how on earth do you calculate them? What if you use these effect-based specializations as the base of your pyramid, with element-based specializations on top, and you cast a spell that doesn't have those effects? The only reason to assume they work like Refinement specializations is the use of the word specializations - which doesn't apply to Hellfire or Place of Power anyway.

3. I read it as definite upgrade in the sense Wizard's Constitution and Cassandra's Tears are definite upgrades. The part I was looking at is

What the power source is offering in this specific case, then, is a broadening of what you don’t have to rationalize.

Essentially, an easier time coming up with spell descriptions.
Also, since I'm not seeing it, could you explain how being able to do thaumaturgy effects in combat is actually superior to not being able to?