Is this enchanted item too powerful?

[Mr. Death]

Pretty sure it's not.

Heck, even letting people use defensive armour items as a free action requires a bit of interpretation IIRC.

Actually, I just checked, and it says defensive items in general can be used as a free action:

Defensive items (ones that provide armor
or a block, for example) often consume a use at
the time of defense and don’t require a separate
action to activate.

Yes, it says armor or a block as an example, but if it meant only those, I think it would have been more specific.

[Taran]

Actually, I just checked, and it says defensive items in general can be used as a free action:
Yes, it says armor or a block as an example, but if it meant only those, I think it would have been more specific.

Nice catch.  In that case, something that would boost your alertness to spot an ambush could be considered defensive.  So an item containing a maneuver like "hyper-vigilant" would reactively give you a free tag to boost your roll.  But an item to pre-emtively boost your attack roll isn't defensive at all and would cost an action.

I've always figured the item's action is based on the action it's trying to emulate.

If it's an item that replaces/enhances a reactive roll, like an awareness check or a dodge, for example, then it'd be a free action.

If it's enhancing/replacing something that normally requires an action, it costs an action.  A maneuver/attack are actions and therefore require an action to activate.

[Sanctaphrax]

You're right. Looks like I was wrong. That's what I get for posting while away from my books, I guess.

The text looks like it's meant to allow defensive maneuver items that are activated without an action, but I think there's probably enough ambiguity to disallow them without directly contravening the RAW. And I'm inclined to do exactly that, because enchanted items are powerful enough anyway. Especially once you make powerful ones that can give you 3 tags with a single activation.

[GryMor]

I concur with the recommendation that maneuver based items not be included, even when used defensively, in the reflexive defense triggering. The usual "defense" aspects are often already useful for some non defense actions (though, they are also often not useful some defenses).

[Mr. Death]

You're right. Looks like I was wrong. That's what I get for posting while away from my books, I guess.

The text looks like it's meant to allow defensive maneuver items that are activated without an action, but I think there's probably enough ambiguity to disallow them without directly contravening the RAW. And I'm inclined to do exactly that, because enchanted items are powerful enough anyway. Especially once you make powerful ones that can give you 3 tags with a single activation.

Yeah, that's fair.

I concur with the recommendation that maneuver based items not be included, even when used defensively, in the reflexive defense triggering. The usual "defense" aspects are often already useful for some non defense actions (though, they are also often not useful some defenses).

Two things, though--if it's already been used for defense, it requires a fate point to use it for anything else, and an aspect can cut both ways. My one player with a defensive item like this (gives a brief burst of enhanced speed) has gotten compelled, for example, in tight corridors to run into a wall and hamper his defense on a subsequent turn.

[GryMor]

Two things, though--if it's already been used for defense, it requires a fate point to use it for anything else, and an aspect can cut both ways. My one player with a defensive item like this (gives a brief burst of enhanced speed) has gotten compelled, for example, in tight corridors to run into a wall and hamper his defense on a subsequent turn.

Compels are their own reward. I was more meaning that, if I have:
Enchanted Item: Acausal Shard: Burst of Speed, Disjointed Movement, An Instant Ahead (Power 9, +1 Usable by others, 3 uses per session)

That is 3 fragile aspects and associated tags, all of which are likely usable in many defenses against physical attacks, but are sometimes relevant to other actions. As fragile aspects they go away when the tag is burned (and likely within a few actions of being created even if not used), as aspects they augment actions rather than replacing them, and they are, in the end, more versatile than straight up defenses. It really doesn't need reflexive triggering for defense on top of all of that, and compares favorably with it's pure defense compatriots in many circumstances.

[Hick Jr]

GryMor has a point, but I find the roll-replacing ability of most defensive enchanted items to be equally useful as the aspect creation. If I roll abysmally and activate my defensive item, a +6 to a roll is no small thing, but when I just rolled -3, it's not a huge help. I would much rather have a +9 as my defense roll or Armor:4 in that situation.


Of course, if you're playing the unstoppable "do anything" machine a dedicated crafter with nothing to lose is, it's a moot point, because he has both.


Actually, is it just me, or does the "use it again for 1 mental stress" ability of Crafting make it objectively more powerful than Evocation? You can't blow the control roll and kill yourself on activating an enchanted item. Upon further thought, someone with Thaumaturgy and nothing else but Refinements devoted towards Crafting and a thematic specialty is probably one of the deadliest characters it's possible to play.

[GryMor]

Of course, if you're playing the unstoppable "do anything" machine a dedicated crafter with nothing to lose is, it's a moot point, because he has both.

Actually, is it just me, or does the "use it again for 1 mental stress" ability of Crafting make it objectively more powerful than Evocation? You can't blow the control roll and kill yourself on activating an enchanted item. Upon further thought, someone with Thaumaturgy and nothing else but Refinements devoted towards Crafting and a thematic specialty is probably one of the deadliest characters it's possible to play.

Evocation blows crafting out of the water on the offensive alpha strike side of things. Assuming a skill cap of 5, the Thaumaturgy crafter has the choice of flat 10 attack, 0 WR (thaumaturgy based) or a roll+5+tags attack WR 10 (Evocation based) attacks. The Evoker can throw out roll+12+tags WR 5-10 attacks. The crafter will have an endurance advantage, in the first scene of heavy combat, but that quickly goes away (actual numbers for both sides will hopefully/likely be lower much of the time, and this doesn't deal with the MSD issues on both sides). Crafting, of course, beats the tar out of Evocation on the defensive, utility side of things, but it's REALLY hard to argue with the overwhelming firepower of Evocation.

[Hick Jr]

I'm pretty sure crafted offensive items have a Weapon rating.

[narphoenix]

I'm pretty sure crafted offensive items have a Weapon rating.

Yes, but you can't fire them off of a 15 score. And then Evocation has comparative Weapon ratings, to boot.

[Sanctaphrax]

GryMor has a point, but I find the roll-replacing ability of most defensive enchanted items to be equally useful as the aspect creation. If I roll abysmally and activate my defensive item, a +6 to a roll is no small thing, but when I just rolled -3, it's not a huge help. I would much rather have a +9 as my defense roll or Armor:4 in that situation.

You can spend tags on rerolls, too. So if your base defence skill is 6, then a triple-tag provides (on average) the same defensive bonus as a 9-shift block when you roll -3 and a better one when you roll -1 or better.

Plus it lets you save tags for later, if you don't need them all. And it has applications beyond simple defence. And you can boost your defence further with FP and more tags when using it.

So the maneuver item is, when given to a combat character, generally better than the block item. The defence roll it provides only becomes worse on average when the character using it has a skill of 2 or less, and even then it has significant advantages over the block item.

And of course, even if it was weaker, letting it exist would make crafters stronger.

Actually, is it just me, or does the "use it again for 1 mental stress" ability of Crafting make it objectively more powerful than Evocation?

No. As GryMor said, crafters must choose between accuracy and damage. Plus crafters have to choose their effects in advance, and they're really gear-dependent.

Worth mentioning that evokers can't blow control rolls on their main spells either, what with Rotes and all.

Upon further thought, someone with Thaumaturgy and nothing else but Refinements devoted towards Crafting and a thematic specialty is probably one of the deadliest characters it's possible to play.

Yeah, it's one of them.

[GryMor]

I'm pretty sure crafted offensive items have a Weapon rating.

Items emulate a spell. If it emulates an evocation attack, then it has a WR but you need to use your own skills to actually land the hit. If it emulates a thaumaturgical attack, then, for all intents and purposes, it has no WR and is just an attack at the power level of the spell. That said, the result of the thaumaturgical attack has a lot of options that aren't available for an evocation attack.