Need advice on combat summoning.

[Leeder]

Hello averyone!

I start a new game in the Dresdenverse powered by DFRPG. One of my players wants to play a Focused Practitioner with the specialization in Summoning. I've red the Thaumaturgy block in Your Story, and it's clear to me how to use summoning as a ritual, but the Evocation section is quite confusing. I think the player is going to use it in combat somehow, but I am a newbie in FATE, and I have no idea how to make a summoning evocation useful and interesting. Maybe, any ideas on D&D "Summon Monster"? A direct avocation attack? Maneuvers and blocks are easy to imagine.

Looking forward for your opinions, Leeder.

[Sanctaphrax]

A standard evocation attack could be any aggressive creature, as long as its lifespan was sufficiently short.

A giant bear appears, bites, and dissolves into ectoplasm. Mechanically identical to a fireball, but narratively different.

If you're talking about summoning thaumaturgy with the speed and methods of evocation, which is what you'll need to actually create characters, then you'll have more trouble. The canonical summoning rules don't cover that possibility terribly well.

I personally use some houserules (Method 1) which don't have that issue, but if you'd rather stick to canon then I don't know what you should do.

[Leeder]

Oh, it's a great homerule. I think there will be an opportunity to try and apply it in my game, if you don't mind. The summoning and binding rules in the Your Story does not describe abilities of a summoned creature, so I find such a variant rule very useful. Thank you.

When I was saying about D&D-like combat summons, I thought about Snakeboy's snakes. Is it some sort of reflavoured fireball? It's okay, but I've found out that idea of short-time summons is great. Think of an ectomancer, commanding a ghost squad to attack his enemies? They rise from graves and tear the ectomancer's opponents apart... It works great like a fireball only until the opponents try to strike these ghosts. And there my flavour-to-mechanics converter died in agony. If these ghosts were only the fireball's visualization, why shoud their targets attack them? Maybe anybody has any idea? The variant with appearing and then dissolving monster don't suit me.

[InFerrumVeritas]

You could treat it like a special effect attack.  Ghosts attack at Weapon 0, but there's an aspect "Ghosts" created on a successful attack.  The difficulty to remove this aspect is equal to the number of shifts in the spell. 

[PirateJack]

Personally, I don't think summoning is something you do with evocation. What you seem to be describing is a spirit attack using ectoplasm drawn from the Nevernever and moulded into the form of a creature. Summoning is more for sapient beings than animated ectoplasm, which I think takes ritual rather than evocation. Unless, you know, you just open a portal to the Nevernever and 'summon' a few allies through it.

[Leeder]

PirateJack, but what I've described seems to me pretty like summoning. Yes, the creatures summoned right in a battlefield does not have wit and charm of ritually summoned ones, but they appeare (summoning) and obey (binding), so...

InFerrumVeritas, you just gave me a good stimulus. I can treat such ability like creating an environmental hazard. And the people trapped inside that zone, need to escape or dispell the summons. It doesn't apply in the case of "I create a minion and will him to wreak havoc", but I like it. Thank you!

[Dr.FunLove]

Couldn't summoning just be a quick ritual? If we're pulling things straight from the NeverNever that is. Summoning, in the canon, doesn't seem to take all that long generally.

I'd say look at a character like Binder for guidance and inspiration.

[Leeder]

Dr.FunLove, could you please clarify your suggestion? How do you see quick summoning in action? Thaumaturgic summoning consisn of the three steps: preparing, summoning and negotiating. The last part is obviously a prolonged action.

Where can I take a look on that Binder?

[Dr.FunLove]

@Leeder
Negotiation can be abrogated if you're controlling the creatures or simply summoning them and pointing them at something you want to die. The best example of summoning in a useful fashion in the canon is Binder

(click to show/hide)

http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Binder

.

It is clearly possible to summon and utilize creatures in the way you seem to be wanting, though I haven't given those mechanics all that much thought. I know Sanctaphrax posted a link to a thread that went into the concept in some detail.

[Sanctaphrax]

When I was saying about D&D-like combat summons, I thought about Snakeboy's snakes. Is it some sort of reflavoured fireball?

Dunno.

The stuff in the novels is sometimes hard to model mechanically.

Anyway, full character-creating summoning is not possible with evocation. It's too complex an effect. Fortunately there are ways to use rituals with evocation's speed.

Unfortunately, it's not clear how the 3-part summoning process could be managed while using evocation-speed ritual magic. Might not even be possible.

The reason I suggested those houserules is that they have only one phase. Preparing, summoning, and negotiating are all fused together. So that issue does not arise.

[Leeder]

Oh, that Binder... Thank you, I've got it. Anyway, I believe it is canonical, the problem is how to mechanically represent it.

Sanctaphrax, I see, you treat loyalty and mental capability of a summoned creature as a multiplier to the ritual's complexity.

Fortunately there are ways to use rituals with evocation's speed.

I am comparatively weak in DFRPG's magic for now (ouch, it's much more tough than other rules). Could you explain what are these ways?

[Sanctaphrax]

Sanctaphrax, I see, you treat loyalty and mental capability of a summoned creature as a multiplier to the ritual's complexity.

Yep. Every other field of thaumaturgy compresses everything into a single complexity number, so I figured summoning should be the same.

I am comparatively weak in DFRPG's magic for now (ouch, it's much more tough than other rules). Could you explain what are these ways?

The main way is to use Sponsored Magic. Most fields of Sponsored Magic offer the ability to use at least one type of spell with evocation's speed and methods.

Sponsored Magic is a fairly expensive ability, but it's worth the price. If it's appropriate for the character, then I recommend it.

It's also possible to gain temporary Sponsored Magic in play, if some powerful being decides to lend you a favour.

And if you create an enchanted item with a summoning spell inside of it, using it will be as fast as casting an evocation.

If you're willing to go beyond what's canonical, you can look here.

You can also use a Power that's exactly like Sponsored Magic, except there's no sponsor.

My personal choice would be that last one. You intend to cast summoning rituals and summoning evocations, so you might as well take Summoning Magic. Especially since summoning isn't a standard evocation element.

[Mr. Death]

One of my players is considering something like this (specifically, her inspiration is Yuna of FFX), and we decided sponsored magic, with the sponsor being either the summoned creatures in aggregate or their ruler (i.e., a Bahamut analog) and smooth over the whole thing about beating the creature's will as part of the sponsor benefits--the deals have already been made, the summoner is just calling in a quick favor.

What I came up with for the tentative Evothaum (character's still in the hypothetical stages), amounts to:
Base, 1-shift spell gets you a minion for one scene, with no refresh spent, and a skillcap of 3. So something that might be useful as a second set of hands, but not really powerful.

You can raise the creature's skillcap by 1 for each additional shift, up to 5 normally (I'm thinking some kind of diminishing returns to discourage going above that--maybe you need an additional 2 shifts to bump it to 6, an additional 3 to get it to 7...or maybe they can't summon something with a skillcap above their Lore?).

Additional shifts can be devoted to powers, with one refresh equal to one shift.

So, on this model, her "Shiva" summon would have a 5-shift cost--skillcap up to 5 for Weapons, with an ice-based breath weapon. Since the summons are ectoplasmic bodies that only last for a scene, the Recovery powers can be cut out entirely to save costs. The Catch is factored into toughness powers (the ice summon would be obviously weak to fire, etc.).

She's considering having each summon as a Rote spell, with attendant focus items to help cover the power costs.

Thoughts?

[PatchR]

One of my players is considering something like this (specifically, her inspiration is Yuna of FFX), and we decided sponsored magic, with the sponsor being either the summoned creatures in aggregate or their ruler (i.e., a Bahamut analog) and smooth over the whole thing about beating the creature's will as part of the sponsor benefits--the deals have already been made, the summoner is just calling in a quick favor.

What I came up with for the tentative Evothaum (character's still in the hypothetical stages), amounts to:
Base, 1-shift spell gets you a minion for one scene, with no refresh spent, and a skillcap of 3. So something that might be useful as a second set of hands, but not really powerful.

You can raise the creature's skillcap by 1 for each additional shift, up to 5 normally (I'm thinking some kind of diminishing returns to discourage going above that--maybe you need an additional 2 shifts to bump it to 6, an additional 3 to get it to 7...or maybe they can't summon something with a skillcap above their Lore?).

Additional shifts can be devoted to powers, with one refresh equal to one shift.

So, on this model, her "Shiva" summon would have a 5-shift cost--skillcap up to 5 for Weapons, with an ice-based breath weapon. Since the summons are ectoplasmic bodies that only last for a scene, the Recovery powers can be cut out entirely to save costs. The Catch is factored into toughness powers (the ice summon would be obviously weak to fire, etc.).

She's considering having each summon as a Rote spell, with attendant focus items to help cover the power costs.

Thoughts?

I like it

[PirateJack]

Yeah, that looks good.