Need advice on combat summoning.

[Sanctaphrax]

I'm gonna break with the crowd here to say that I don't like that plan.

1 shift for a summon with a Good skill cap is really really cheap. A 1-shift spell is pretty worthless, but a Good fighter can be a big help in a fight. It can maneuver every round. And a Good craftsman/liar/driver/whatever can be really useful.

3 shifts for Superb skills is also probably too good.

Anything beyond Superb is supposed to be really rare. I suggest strongly limiting the ability to summon things with above-Superb skills.

Consider that skill replacement normally costs 1 shift per skill shift. It lasts for one roll, and doesn't give you any extra actions. This is scene-long, and using the skill doesn't consume other actions, and it may include other skills as well.

Also consider that you can generally combine X Y-shift spells into a YX-shift spell. Would you let someone create five Good fighters with a 5-shift spell?

I don't know Final Fantasy well, but I hear its summons are kind of like Golden Sun's. You have a list of big monsters that you can call in for a single massive attack.

If that's what your player is after, I can think of a number of good ways to handle this:

-Just add cool fluff to evocations.
-Make a list of summons and assign a shift cost to each based on rules-free judgement. Let her summon from that list and only from that list.
-Use a free-form system kind of like the one I use. But make every summon last one scene (or maybe even less) and make the summons stick to combat skills. In exchange, make combat-related stuff cheaper.

[Mr. Death]

I'm gonna break with the crowd here to say that I don't like that plan.

1 shift for a summon with a Good skill cap is really really cheap. A 1-shift spell is pretty worthless, but a Good fighter can be a big help in a fight. It can maneuver every round. And a Good craftsman/liar/driver/whatever can be really useful.

3 shifts for Superb skills is also probably too good.

Anything beyond Superb is supposed to be really rare. I suggest strongly limiting the ability to summon things with above-Superb skills.

Yeah, I was going to do that--like I said, either by just saying they couldn't summon something with a skill cap over their Lore, or by the diminishing returns. Would it make more sense that a 3-shift spell would be needed for a Good skillcap?

Doing that wouldn't put it beyond her--I've already suggested she use focus items for the different summons and have them be rote spells, so even if the basic Shiva was 7 shifts, it wouldn't be too bad.

Consider that skill replacement normally costs 1 shift per skill shift. It lasts for one roll, and doesn't give you any extra actions. This is scene-long, and using the skill doesn't consume other actions, and it may include other skills as well.

Also consider that you can generally combine X Y-shift spells into a YX-shift spell. Would you let someone create five Good fighters with a 5-shift spell?

One of the rules me and the player decided on was that she'd only be able to have one summoned creature out at a time--she'd control it, but it'd also 'replace' her turn.

I don't know Final Fantasy well, but I hear its summons are kind of like Golden Sun's. You have a list of big monsters that you can call in for a single massive attack.

Normally, yes--but FFX, this player's inspiration, does it differently, where the summoned creature comes out and fights in the summoner's stead until either the fight's over, the creature's beaten, or it's dismissed.

If that's what your player is after, I can think of a number of good ways to handle this:

-Just add cool fluff to evocations.
-Make a list of summons and assign a shift cost to each based on rules-free judgement. Let her summon from that list and only from that list.
-Use a free-form system kind of like the one I use. But make every summon last one scene (or maybe even less) and make the summons stick to combat skills. In exchange, make combat-related stuff cheaper.

I like that second option of those. If the third is the one you linked to before, it seemed to me that it ratcheted up the price really fast.

[GryMor]

If the summon is replacing the summoner, then it can be implemented as straight up skill substitution for the summoner. Spend shifts at a one for one basis, on buying trappings for the scene, anything not acquired defaults to the summoner's skill and they share stress and consequences.

[Sanctaphrax]

Yeah, I was going to do that--like I said, either by just saying they couldn't summon something with a skill cap over their Lore, or by the diminishing returns. Would it make more sense that a 3-shift spell would be needed for a Good skillcap?

Yeah, I think so. But honestly any precise numbers are going to depend on how you set the other variables. Like which skills a summon can have and whether you share stress with them and so on.

One of the rules me and the player decided on was that she'd only be able to have one summoned creature out at a time--she'd control it, but it'd also 'replace' her turn.

...

Normally, yes--but FFX, this player's inspiration, does it differently, where the summoned creature comes out and fights in the summoner's stead until either the fight's over, the creature's beaten, or it's dismissed.

Okay, that makes everything much easier.

If the third is the one you linked to before, it seemed to me that it ratcheted up the price really fast.

It is and it does. Being able to summon an army of semi-independent servants is really strong, so it demands a high price.

What you have in mind is much less powerful and can therefore be much cheaper.

If the summon is replacing the summoner, then it can be implemented as straight up skill substitution for the summoner.

Except that skill substitution spells are only for one roll each.

[GryMor]

Except that skill substitution spells are only for one roll each.

Where do you get that impression from? It's inconsistent with, at a minimum, the climbing potion as well as the duration section of the thaumaturgy rolls. Sure, it's often used for things that it can elide into a single roll but could take a while, even with magical support (tracking, research, etc). But there doesn't seem to be anything inconsistent with a featherweight spell of substantial duration providing ongoing replacement of the athletics skill for the purposes of climbing and jumping. It is in fact, what was suggested by the designers when the game came out (albeit then, in the case of shape shifting).

[Sanctaphrax]

Climbing potion? What climbing potion?

I don't know what the writers said when the game came out, but what I'm saying isn't inconsistent with the rules as far as I can tell. The methods of calculating complexity (Simple Actions, Maneuvers, Contest and Conflicts) are all described as single actions.

An X-shift Thaumaturgy spell is usually equivalent to an X-shift skill roll. And there's no skill roll that'll change your skills. I know there are some rituals that don't follow that guideline, but I don't see any reason to assume any allow long-term skill changes.

Looking at the examples the only one spell that does anything like that. It's the anti-illusion ointment, which already breaks the rules in an entirely unrelated way.

[Taran]

I think he's referring to the fact that a thaumaturgy spell lasts "1 scene".  Therefore, if your potion is a skill replacer with a duration of 1 scene...

I'd had a similar question.  It just seems powerful, though, to replace any given skill with your Lore+foci for an unlimited amount of rolls.

[GryMor]

I think he's referring to the fact that a thaumaturgy spell lasts "1 scene".  Therefore, if your potion is a skill replacer with a duration of 1 scene...

I'd had a similar question.  It just seems powerful, though, to replace any given skill with your Lore+foci for an unlimited amount of rolls.

When I had asked, the response wasn't in the form of replacing an entire skill it was in the form of replacing a trapping for a particular purpose, on the same level of specificity as tracking a particular person (mundanely tracking someone could take several investigation rolls, thaumaturgy could be seen as doing it in one or could be seen as doing it in many with the same level of effect, and you would only notice the difference if one of them was high enough difficulty to throw the spell). One of the examples was the feather weight spell/potion from one of the books which was suggested as functioning by replacing athletics for the purpose of overcoming vertical zone boundaries.

[Sanctaphrax]

It sounds like you're talking about a conversation with one of the writers that I wasn't part of, so I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about.

Could I get a link?

[GryMor]

I just spent the past half hour trying to find that conversation, and I'm coming up blank. In fact, I can't find any of my own posts from 2010 to 2012, so either they have been eaten, or the conversation was on one of the writers own blogs, as I _know_ I had questions about the adjudication of thaumaturgy for self shapeshifting and that it predated actually starting my current game.

[Taran]

I thought it was regarding using thaumaturgy for flight...maybe in the thaum section?

Edit: nope.

[finnmckool]

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that combat summoning isn't different. Just hard. You're compressing the timeline but it's still at least three rounds. At least. Here's why...you're summoning a trump card. Which you can totally DO! That's magic! But! The bigger the trump the harder it is to pull off. Need a demon in a hurry? You better negotiate hard and fast! Or you end up having to give it your Name. Or your Soul. Don't have time to do it right? Well we all know what happens when you go cheap on a summoning, or get distracted. KABOOM!

I think this is totally doable as one of the higher-risk/higher-reward kind of deals. Just make every step take at least 1 round (so 3 rounds minimum) and just up all the difficulty. Item quality, time, distractions, all are BIG factors in a summon. So make'em count. Does that make on the fly summoning near impossible? Yep. But that's something to build towards. Summoning isn't JUST about calling them up. It's about control. So your summoner, like the most powerful wizards, is REALLY SCARY when they get the chance to prepare. So if they hat up, and do a proper summon, then great! You brought a boomstick! But if they do the summon, and you aren't ready to USE the critter and it gets bored? Oh my. If you get caught with your circle open? Oh my.

So, in summary, Summoners can totally work as is, they're just really difficult. At lower levels they have to have prep time. Summoning a beast on the fly is almost impossible. But that's not all a person can do. There are other tactical and magical purposes (opening gates comes to mind as a Summoner side job). But when they GET their prep time, when they go on the offensive, or you catch them ready, they can bring the PAIN. Then it's all about keeping CONTROL of the beastie.

At UPPER levels? Things get FUN. Once you have the shifts available to pull OFF a combat Summon, as in, "Its fine that I'm distracted. It's cool that I don't have time to do it right. I may even have to improvise a few of the ingredients," things get sticky. Your group has to keep you absolutely protected while you summon. You have to stay safe for at LEAST 3 rounds, if not more (more rounds, more prep more shifts?). And here's the best part, you are negotiating at an EXTREME disadvantage, as you are on a very short clock and your possible Hireling KNOWS it. So we have LOTS of potential for serious long-term consequences, and explosive disasters. But if you're bold enough to risk it, and strong enough to try it, there's a lot of power available. And that's what the Dresden Files is all about.

[GryMor]

The other other other option is to do the normal summoning/binding/controlling action in the background and do 'combat summoning' as a maneuver to bring one of your already contracted allies to the battle.

[Taran]

The other other other option is to do the normal summoning/binding/controlling action in the background and do 'combat summoning' as a maneuver to bring one of your already contracted allies to the battle.

hmmm...this seems the best way.  It's a ritual done in advance then, in combat, you open a portal and bring it in.

[Sanctaphrax]

That's certainly easier. But it also isn't actually combat summoning.

I just spent the past half hour trying to find that conversation, and I'm coming up blank. In fact, I can't find any of my own posts from 2010 to 2012, so either they have been eaten, or the conversation was on one of the writers own blogs, as I _know_ I had questions about the adjudication of thaumaturgy for self shapeshifting and that it predated actually starting my current game.

Pity. Not really sure if I can follow your end of the discussion without seeing what you're referring to.

Well, it's not the end of the world if this line of conversation ends here.