Champions and Thresholds:

[PatchR]

Hey Folks,

I'm interested in people's opinions as to if a building has no threshold, and a being that can't cross thresholds is inside it when a CoG raises the threshold, what happens. Are they trapped? Can they leave normally? Are the expelled unless they were previously invited?

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Second, somewhat related note:

Does anyone else think Bless This House is underpowered? A +2 to a non-existent or weak threshold is kind of a fail. I understand that it can't raise a Threshold that's stronger than conviction, but I thought maybe it should raise it /to/ the conviction level. Thoughts?

[UmbraLux]

They're trapped. 

(click to show/hide)

Remember Ghost Story, specifically the cemetery!

[PatchR]

They're trapped. 

(click to show/hide)

Remember Ghost Story, specifically the cemetery!

More details if possible (In PM if needed), as I don't have the books, but I've read all of them. Don't specifically remember Ghost Story as it wasn't in my top of the series.

[Haru]

I'm interested in people's opinions as to if a building has no threshold, and a being that can't cross thresholds is inside it when a CoG raises the threshold, what happens. Are they trapped? Can they leave normally? Are the expelled unless they were previously invited?

There's a difference between no threshold and a 0 threshold. Even a CoG doesn't create a threshold from no threshold, they just raise an existing one, but they do so, even if it is 0.

Does anyone else think Bless This House is underpowered? A +2 to a non-existent or weak threshold is kind of a fail. I understand that it can't raise a Threshold that's stronger than conviction, but I thought maybe it should raise it /to/ the conviction level. Thoughts?

Remember that it stacks. If you have 3 characters with Bless this House in a room, you'll have +6 to the threshold, if their convictions are all above the base threshold. And there are not going to be a lot of creatures that will be able to do any harm against a 6+ shift block. A block that's sustained, nonetheless, so even if they beat it once, it doesn't go away. It is pretty powerful.

[Cadd]

To me, the realization that Michael and Charity quite possibly doesn't even trigger their Bless this House in their own home kind of breaks it for me.
They both have Superb conviction (+5). Thresholds for a home start at +2, increasing by +2 for each "homely" factor, and I'd say the Carpenter home quilfies for two upgrades (children growing up there, and they are actually building an extension themselves) putting it at +6, thus cancelling out the BtH.

Personally, I'll houserule it to be a +2 bonus the a Threshold that's lower than Conviction, and +1 of the Threshold is higher (maybe with a cap of double conviction of something like that). Really, just anything to make it actually trigger in a normal family home even if you're not playing Submerged...

As to the original question, I'm with Haru here. BtH can't create a threshold from nothing, so if there's a Threshold to boost (even if it's 0) it has already blocked out any being that can't cross a Threshold.

_{Edit: Mixed up other posters so attributed wrongly. Corrected.}

[PatchR]

Isn't a threshold of 0 a no threshold? Did I miss something?

[Haru]

Nope, 0 is still a number.

A warehouse or an office building doesn't have a threshold. Even if Micheal, Sanya and Shiro are in there together, there is not going to be a threshold.

Harry's home however has a very weak threshold (let's ignore wards for now). He is single, he rarely has people over, so there is not going to be much of a threshold to talk about. Still, it is his home, so it is there, even if in itself, it would do nothing to deter any demon or ghost, so it's 0. But it is still there, it can be raised by a true believer, and it can be used to build wards from.

To me, the realization that Michael and Charity quite possibly doesn't even trigger their Bless this House in their own home kind of breaks it for me.

The fact that they have a high threshold like that kind of makes it work even if they are not there, I feel. But they can also bring this protection to other peoples homes if they are visiting.

[Sanctaphrax]

Does anyone else think Bless This House is underpowered?

Yes.

Quite a few people, actually.

Including me.

I'd rather use Divine Protection, because the GM doesn't need to go out of his (or her) way to make it useful.

To me, the realization that Michael and Charity quite possibly doesn't even trigger their Bless this House in their own home kind of breaks it for me.
They both have Superb conviction (+5). Thresholds for a home start at +2, increasing by +2 for each "homely" factor, and I'd say the Carpenter home quilfies for two upgrades (children growing up there, and they are actually building an extension themselves) putting it at +6, thus cancelling out the BtH.

They should get rid of the extension that they're building. That way they won't get the +2 from it, so the base strength will be lower, so they'll be able to use BtH, so the final strength will be higher.

This doesn't make much sense, but it seems to be what the rules say.

[Cadd]

The fact that they have a high threshold like that kind of makes it work even if they are not there, I feel. But they can also bring this protection to other peoples homes if they are visiting.

This doesn't hold up to me, because the hypothetical family next door, that's lived there just as long, has kids growing up there and also builds an extension themselves are gonna have the exact same Threshold as the Carpenters, even though none in that family has BtH.
Basically, I figure that all other things being equal, the home of someone with BtH should have boosted Threshold compared to someone who doesn't.

They should get rid of the extension that they're building. That way they won't get the +2 from it, so the base strength will be lower, so they'll be able to use BtH, so the final strength will be higher.

This doesn't make much sense, but it seems to be what the rules say.

This paradox really puts the finger on the problem with BtH by RAW.

[vultur]

I think it shouldn't have the "if Conviction is better than the threshold" thing, it should just be +2. BUT +1 per person with BtH after the first one.


There should maybe be some total cap too... but not necessarily, a church with several True Believers in it might well just be impenetrable to most NN entities.

[PirateJack]

That's basically true anyway. It would take a seriously powerful creature to break in to St Mary of the Angels.

[Todjaeger]

That's basically true anyway. It would take a seriously powerful creature to break in to St Mary of the Angels.

Or the Carpenter's home for that matter.  It was suggested by Harry in Ghost Story that the Threshold on the Carpenter's home is the greatest in the world, and IIRC he suggested (somewhat jokingly) that it might be viewable from space like the Great Wall of China.  Also keep in mind there is a CPP detail of something like a dozen angels in and around the house.

-Cheers

[vultur]

Yeah, good point, no real need for a total cap. It still won't work in a non-threshold-capable building like a WalMart, right?

[blackstaff67]

Unless WalMart had a chapel inside its store for people to pray...

[Troy]

Unless WalMart had a chapel inside its store for people to pray...

Coming soon! You knew it was! Right?

I kid. I kid.