Fanfiction - Good or Evil?

[Cyclone Jack]

I have written a tiny bit of fanfic. Back in the deeps of Dr. Who hiatus -- when the idea of the shows return was almost ridiculously optimistic -- I dabbled in it here and there. Those pieces were the first things I ever dared share with an audience. Their complimentary acceptance was a huge morale builder for the idea that maybe I could write a fair stick.

When Firefly was cancelled, I wrote this: Burnt. It was originally meant to be the prelude to a much longer tale called Little Man Loved Fire, about the incident Early casually mentions in 'Objects In Space'. However, by that point, I was neck deep in my own writing and didn't have time for fanfic.

Both of those, however, were cancelled shows. What are the fans of cancelled/ended media supposed to do? The property is lying fallow and unused, and it is much loved. It would be silly if people didn't try and continue it.

That said, I think it only respectful to follow the wishes of the creator of the property. This is not a legal opinion -- it's a question of manners.

[Yeratel]

Here's an interesting link to the most notorious case of What Not To Do In Writing Fan Fiction: http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/004162.html


Just out of curiosity I went over to www.fanfiction.net to see what was out there from the Dresdenverse. There are 80 some odd (some very odd) Dresden files stories out there, most based on the characters as written in the TV show (evidently lots of Bob fans out there).  In contrast, there are about a quarter of a million Harry Potter tales, which mostly seem to be concerned with who's snogging who.

[BolshevikMuppet]

For my own 2¢ I like slash fan fiction when I can find someone who writes well. 
BTW, does anyone know where I could find Dresdenverse slash?

No, I don't, but I'm now damn tempted to write some.  I just can't figure who.  Thomas and someone.  But who?  Like......hmm.  -Ponders.-  Gimme a few days; I'll get back to ya.  -wink-

[Yeratel]

For my own 2¢ I like slash fan fiction when I can find someone who writes well. 
BTW, does anyone know where I could find Dresdenverse slash?

No, I don't, but I'm now damn tempted to write some.  I just can't figure who.  Thomas and someone.  But who?  Like......hmm.  -Ponders.-  Gimme a few days; I'll get back to ya.  -wink-

Browsing the titles in Dresden fanfiction turns up some homoerotic stuff about Thomas, but I didn't look to see who it was with. There's any number of slash Harry Potter stories listed in multiple permutations, Harry/Ron, Harry/Draco, Snape/Draco, Hermione/Jenny, ad nauseum.

[Cyclone Jack]

Whew. Idly flipping through that fanfiction.net reminded me of the biggest reason not to write fanfic: to keep from being associated with the pathetic ramblings of lonely, horny teenagers.

[trboturtle]

My fanfiction stories are mostly in 'dead' series -- Some anime, and a couple of other series. These days, my writing is based in the Battletech Universe, where I don't need to use a single established character for any of my stories. Gaming Universes are the best of boith worlds -- all the BG is there, as is the tone, all you need is some characters and a situation that fit into that universe.

Craig

[firegazer]

A story is worth a great deal, especially if it is your income.  Anyone who has actually written and struggled through a true manuscript would NEVER say that a story is worth less than nothing, published or not.

I think the problem is that you misread that quote - I was talking about a fanfiction story, not the original story - naturally, that's worth exactly what was paid for it. The reason a fanfiction story is worth less than nothing is that you make no money off it, and also invest quite a bit of time and effort into it. If you understood me correctly, and stand by your statement, then I must feel very taken aback by your last comment - it implies a very ad hominem attack, which is to say that you're inferring I'm not an honest writer. I've been writing since I was able to put two words together, and I've put most of my life into it. Even if I am not a perfect writer by your standards, I've still put in the work, and I put more work into it every day. Perhaps I'm taking your statement the wrong way, but it didn't come off very nicely. Again, perhaps I'm in the wrong there.

As I said if you are using it in private to learn, great.  If you are putting it out on the internet, which I consider to be the same as publishing you are "taking" the property of others. Perhaps someone with more law experience could address the internet issue as I'm certainly not an expert on it.  I'm pretty sure that an e-book is copywrited the same as a paper manuscript?

An e-book would be something that you sell through a publisher, and therefore make money off of. No one sells e-books of their fanfiction. I'm not certain where people keep getting the idea that fanfic writers think they're able to sell their stuff, or that they think they're somehow better than the original author, but neither is true (except in extreme cases - and you can't judge an entire group by the fringes, for obvious reasons). Fanfic writers do not "publish" an e-book of their work. They usually put it on an archival site meant specifically for fanfiction, which means that someone out there is actually losing money on fanfiction by paying for the hosting costs. No one makes money off of fanfiction. Period.

As for the law issues, I've seen this debated many times. Fanfiction falls into a gray area in the law, not very well defined, if I'm correct. Most copyright lawyers and laws only bother with things that either make money off of someone else's ideas or somehow hurt what that person has already made, and fanfiction does neither. It is generally up to the author to say whether or not they like fanfiction because of this, and their wishes are supposed to be followed if they claim 'nay'. Authors who don't come out and state either way are generally assumed to not care about it. Perhaps that's wrong, but if they don't care enough to make a simple statement - anywhere, even on a blog or in a short email to ff.net - then people are going to assume it's all right.

I really appreciate the quote from BolshevikMuppet, with which I thoroughly agree.  "The bad thing, however, is growing lazy and too accustomed to the simplicity that fanfiction writing provides us.  I, for one, have trouble coming up with my own in-depth characters, as for so long I've just borrowed other people's."  The challenge is to create those characters and do them well.  Applause to BolshevikMuppet!

BolshevikMuppet was making a very balanced statement, which I also applaud, but you're taking this quote slightly out of context. "The challenge is to create those characters and do them well" - as in, this is the only challenge worth talking about? Learning to write well, creating a mood, learning to use diction correctly - these are not entirely worthless. I would like to add my own personal experiences, which are obviously only one person's case - I have no problems making original characters, and I mostly learned by writing fanfiction. And, as I already mentioned, not everyone writes fanfiction in preparation to be an author. Some people really just enjoy writing fanfiction as a hobby, and that should be all right - you can't demand that everyone in the world take writing as seriously as a published author. We do need people who are good at other things too. (Who do I get to fix my dishwasher? I don't do it. I wouldn't expect the repairman to edit my manuscripts for me either, but who knows whether he writes fanfiction in his free time or not?)

You've been ignoring many of my other comments, possibly just because you didn't have anything to say either way on them. I think one of the problems of this debate is that we haven't outlined what exactly we're debating. Fanfiction in general? Fanfiction when the writer has asked you not to write it? Most everyone here agrees that you shouldn't write fanfiction when the authors says not to. If they say you can, then, do you still feel I'm stealing their furniture?

[Qualapec]

If you think it's not a copyright violation just because you're not getting paid for it, you're wrong. Write for your own amusement, fine, share it with a friend, fine, but publish it to the world at large, including via a free web site, not fine.
If you want to show the world at large what a nifty writer you are, instead of stealing some other writer's ideas and characters, write something original.

Oh. So it's stealing now? That's a more than extreme way to look at it. I'm not getting paid for it, so it isn't like I'm taking any money that would have gone to the original author. Hence; not stealing. At the beginning of every story/chapter I write I put a disclaimer. Openly declaring that the work to follow does not, in fact, belong to me. Further taking from the 'not stealing' argument and adding to the 'borrowing' argument.

Maybe I don't want to write some epic freaking novel? Maybe I just want to sit down at my computer and have some fun? Perhaps it's not about showing the world what a nifty writer I am but simply playing around with characters I already adore, and in the process honing my own writing skills if I ever do decide to take the so-called 'original' route?

~She-Wolf

[Yeratel]

If you think it's not a copyright violation just because you're not getting paid for it, you're wrong. Write for your own amusement, fine, share it with a friend, fine, but publish it to the world at large, including via a free web site, not fine.
If you want to show the world at large what a nifty writer you are, instead of stealing some other writer's ideas and characters, write something original.

Oh. So it's stealing now? That's a more than extreme way to look at it. I'm not getting paid for it, so it isn't like I'm taking any money that would have gone to the original author. Hence; not stealing. At the beginning of every story/chapter I write I put a disclaimer. Openly declaring that the work to follow does not, in fact, belong to me. Further taking from the 'not stealing' argument and adding to the 'borrowing' argument.

Maybe I don't want to write some epic freaking novel? Maybe I just want to sit down at my computer and have some fun? Perhaps it's not about showing the world what a nifty writer I am but simply playing around with characters I already adore, and in the process honing my own writing skills if I ever do decide to take the so-called 'original' route?

Don't blame the messenger, but under copyright law it is indeed stealing. Most commercial publishers, including Jim Butcher's, have clauses in their contracts requiring the author to defend the infringement of copyright of their works, or the author can get sued by the publisher. That's why you'll never see Mr. Butcher hanging around any fic sites, or allowing anyone to upload possible plot ideas here. If he actually takes notice of any fanfic in the Dresdenverse, he would be legally required to fire up the lawyers and start sending out "cease and desist" letters, which can get kind of expensive. More trouble and expense than it's worth to start going after some penniless teenager, but still that's the fact. I seen to recall Iago had a thread about this around here somewhere.
Meanwhile, as I said, it's perfectly fine to write fanfic for your own amusement, for practice, or to share with friends for critique of your writing skills. It's also cool to write parody, and that's something you actually can publish (one of my favorites is Bored Of The Rings, by the staff of The Harvard Lampoon). 

[meg_evonne]

To Firegazer, I apologize if my comments seemed judgmental, I did not intend them to be.  After reading all of your comments and other postings, I am coming to realize that I am not understanding the communities created around these fanfic sites.  I am 'hearing' you say that it is a place where you may share your ideas, that you do not make money from the sites and that it is a place where you can improve your craft. 

It is my age that has a different spin on this.  To me, anything posted on the internet is exposed and public, whereas I think you are seeing it as a smaller intimate community of friends. 

From a strict legal sense, I think that Yeratel seems to be familiar with the legalities involved and I agree with those thoughts.  I will stand wholeheartedly on his/her postings.  Obiously no Nazi soldiers are battering down the doors to shut these sites down and I would hate to have that type of mentality ruling or controling the internet.  If you wish to 'share' some of your work, e-mail me where I can locate them.  I am always open to new ideas and to new understandings!

Best wishes again and as long as one is writing that is probably the best overall outcome anyway!  Blaze certainly proved an interesting line of discussion with this topic.  I suspect it will continue to be debated for years, even centuries to come.  After all a lot of Shakespeare came from previous stories, history and myths!

Meg in IA

[Qualapec]

Don't blame the messenger, but under copyright law it is indeed stealing. Most commercial publishers, including Jim Butcher's, have clauses in their contracts requiring the author to defend the infringement of copyright of their works, or the author can get sued by the publisher. That's why you'll never see Mr. Butcher hanging around any fic sites, or allowing anyone to upload possible plot ideas here. If he actually takes notice of any fanfic in the Dresdenverse, he would be legally required to fire up the lawyers and start sending out "cease and desist" letters, which can get kind of expensive. More trouble and expense than it's worth to start going after some penniless teenager, but still that's the fact. I seen to recall Iago had a thread about this around here somewhere.
Meanwhile, as I said, it's perfectly fine to write fanfic for your own amusement, for practice, or to share with friends for critique of your writing skills. It's also cool to write parody, and that's something you actually can publish (one of my favorites is Bored Of The Rings, by the staff of The Harvard Lampoon).  

Why? That doesn't make any sense. Shouldn't it be the author's (the holder of the copyright) choice one what is or isn't a copyright violation of their work? Or at very least what they will or will not pursue? Especially in such a gray area as fanfic. In which it would be ridiculesly hard ass to go after said "violators".

Why would something like parody be okay when fanfic wouldn't? It seems parody does more damage to the original work than fanfic would. Fanfic could even bring new people into the fandom if the story is well written and somebody really likes it. That ends up giving more money to the copyright holder than parody, which could actively discourage people from giving their money to buy it.

~She-Wolf

[Jan1228]

No, I don't, but I'm now damn tempted to write some.  I just can't figure who.  Thomas and someone.  But who?  Like......hmm.  -Ponders.-  Gimme a few days; I'll get back to ya.  -wink-

  -wink- Will be waiting -wink- PM me when you do!!

how'bout Thomas/any male on the SI staff/Marcone/Harry/Michael/anyone from Forever Knight and Bloodties
hows that for starters. -wink-

Just out of curiosity I went over to www.fanfiction.net to see what was out there from the Dresdenverse. There are 80 some odd (some very odd) Dresden files stories out there, most based on the characters as written in the TV show (evidently lots of Bob fans out there).  In contrast, there are about a quarter of a million Harry Potter tales, which mostly seem to be concerned with who's snogging who.

Thanks for the link Yeratel - heading over there now.....

[JamiSings]

In contrast, there are about a quarter of a million Harry Potter tales, which mostly seem to be concerned with who's snogging who.

Some of those are mine! But no snogging - I just wanted to write myself into the story. (Yes, I do Mary Sues. I don't care if it upsets people. Heck, one of my most popular stories over there is "Star Trek: The Mary Sue.")

First off, let me say, I absolutely abhor my writing. I think I suck massively. But sometimes a story gets stuck in my head and I have no choice but to write it to get it out. Sometimes it's an original story. Sometimes it's a fan fiction. For instance, I really, really, REALLY hate the relationship between X-Men characters Gambit and Rogue. I despise her because she's such trash and does nothing but whine. I think she's just about the worse character in all of Marveldom. So I wrote Betrayal & Rebirth to give Gambit a woman worthy of him and to kill off that two bit tramp. (And to me she is a tramp. She throws herself at anything male - and I'm of the belief "If it quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, and looks like a duck, it sure ain't a quail!" Rogue looks like a tramp, acts like a tramp, talks like a tramp - therefore, she's a tramp. And I'm not so sure she's not one of the bad guys.)

Sometimes, I just can't help myself.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I think the problem is that you misread that quote - I was talking about a fanfiction story, not the original story - naturally, that's worth exactly what was paid for it. The reason a fanfiction story is worth less than nothing is that you make no money off it, and also invest quite a bit of time and effort into it.

You're tangentially setting off a twitch of mine here, though I realise it's not the main point of your post.

Original fiction made available for free by published authors has been shown to be good for sales in the same way that libraries and second-hand bookstores are.  Charlie Stross has talked about this working for him at length. So has Cory Doctorow.  So have several writers associated with the whole Baen Universe thing.  There are people out there who will provide hard numbers for you on how once you have some level of name recognition as a published author, making stuff available for free boosts that recognition in hard sales figures.  "The original story being worth exactly what was paid for it" is in some cases provably wrong.

[firegazer]

Don't blame the messenger, but under copyright law it is indeed stealing. Most commercial publishers, including Jim Butcher's, have clauses in their contracts requiring the author to defend the infringement of copyright of their works, or the author can get sued by the publisher.

Actually, these days, copyright is very hard to lose period, and 'defending infringement of copyright' is only incredibly rarely the case. We have Disney to thank for that, probably, though I'd like to add that the Blackberry case was the most stupid and farfetched example of not defending copyright and still winning out in the end. I've been looking around to educate myself a bit more about the legal terms, in spite of my own ethical views on the matter, and have found that most fanfiction defenses try "Fair Use", though not all. The terms considered under fair use by a judge include, but are not limited to or absolutely required:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes
Unclear here. Fanfiction is not for profit, and it certainly isn't commercial, but saying it's educational would be pushing it unless you were asked to write a 'what happens next' English assignment.

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work
At my best understanding (and obviously, I can be wrong) this is usually more enforced with tangible products and designs than with 'ideas'. There have been some very stupid exceptions, most notably with the Blackberry case.

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole
Fanfiction literally uses absolutely none of the original manuscript, except for names and places. If we're talking figuratively, someone's going to have to have fun legally defining it. I'm certainly not going to attempt it myself.

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
I couldn't tell you whether there's a professional study that's been done to gauge the effects of fanfiction on market value, but in every bit of my own personal experience, I must say that it can only be a positive thing for someone's works (as a whole, not a single, specified fanfic).

There are problems with the fair use defense, especially as fanfiction isn't all parody, and as most of it is not for any nonprofit organization or for schooling. But using a more ethical thought, instead of a legal one, fair use does seem to sum up exactly why we have copyright laws - the reasons behind their existence. Almost everything there leads me to believe that a court would absolve a peniless fanfiction writer under fair use. Again, I may be missing something, and again, people can always surprise you. We all know how wishy-washy the Supreme Court can be about free speech (or we should, if we took our government courses), and a detrimental ruling wouldn't necessarily surprise me if it ever reached them. I do know that lesser courts have ruled both in favor and against fanfiction, at times, but that the 'against' rulings have mostly been in very obviously stupid cases (such as, "I'm going to publish my sequel to this author's novel because mine is BETTER!" - yes, this was an actual case, and the stupid woman lost it, as she should have).

I'm afraid this is a very tenuous argument for my usual standards right now, but I'm currently exhausted and sunburned, and I haven't had near enough time to get you some links and citations, etc. I'd appreciate if you'd gently correct any glaring errors that you catch, and respond as best you can.

To Firegazer, I apologize if my comments seemed judgmental, I did not intend them to be.  After reading all of your comments and other postings, I am coming to realize that I am not understanding the communities created around these fanfic sites.  I am 'hearing' you say that it is a place where you may share your ideas, that you do not make money from the sites and that it is a place where you can improve your craft.

Oh, I'm almost certain that I overreacted, reading it back over again, and I'll sheepishly apologize for that. It's a very strange thing to be having a polite debate about this after so long, and I honestly appreciate it. I'd absolutely be willing to keep talking with you about things outside here, so I can stop taking up everyone's venting space.

There are people out there who will provide hard numbers for you on how once you have some level of name recognition as a published author, making stuff available for free boosts that recognition in hard sales figures.  "The original story being worth exactly what was paid for it" is in some cases provably wrong.

I actually did not know that at all! I find it very interesting and somewhat heartening, in fact. Thanks for sharing it!