Fanfiction - Good or Evil?

[recentcoin]

I suppose that what we write could technically be termed as fanfic.  We work in the D20 world, so no, we haven't created our own universe.  I've found that most of the fantasy genre consists of doing thinly veiled ripoffs of preceding works - mostly of D&D.  I doubt that you can go to the book store and pick up a novel from the genre and find something where some part of the novel hasn't been taken from D&D.  Does that stop them from being enjoyable to read?  Does it seem to stifle the author's creativity?  No, on both counts.  What usually happens is that the author has to be more creative.  It's often quite challenging to stay within the lore of a given framework.  At other times, the canon lore is sadly lacking, in which case, we take that be full creative license to dream something up that a) fits with rest of lore (e.g. no giant mechanical robots in a magical setting) and b) works for the story. 

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of hating of MS's/GS's as well.  Please, allow me to pop your bubble on this.  Most all of the Anne Rice books are MS's.  Wesley Crusher, from StarTrek, is a GS.  Jack Ryan is a classic GS and I cannot help but think that you've all read at least one Tom Clancy book.  A great many novels that we all know and love are really MS's or GS's.  Let's be honest here, what you really hate is the poorly written and often near-psychotic ramblings of the 14 year old emo crowd that flood ff.net and it's sister site, fp.com.  FF has a lot of trash, I agree but I also agree that there are some gems.  It doesn't matter what you do, you always have to dig through a lot of dirt to find a diamond. 

I've already said that what we write could well be classes as fanfic.  Do we suck?  We like to think that we do not.  I'll even invite you over to read and decide for yourself.  Our site is at http://www.rpg-gamerz.com/sd.  Feel free to leave comments.  We started our own site because we found several problems with the existing sites.  Firstly, we're set up to allow collaborative writing and editing. We've yet to see an existing site that allows this.  Secondly, we work by invitation only mainly because we hope to avoid the 14 year old illiterate (lack of grammar and spelling) emo crowd.  They genereally annoy all of us to the point that tasering starts to sound like a viable option.  Thirdly, the entire world is not meant to be "kid safe".  Adults are entitled to some fun too.  Some times, sex, drugs, etc. are a necessary part of plot development.  You can't really do that when you have to be PG-13 all the time. Fifth, posting anything which actually required a disclaimer on it would be cause for me to whip out my voodoo doll and hex you ;P.

We've only got 4 authors and 3 stories, but if you'd like to send a writing sample, I'll be happy to let the members vote.  If approved we'll extend and invitation, set you up with an account, etc.   

[Courser]

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of hating of MS's/GS's as well.  Please, allow me to pop your bubble on this.  Most all of the Anne Rice books are MS's.  Wesley Crusher, from StarTrek, is a GS.  Jack Ryan is a classic GS and I cannot help but think that you've all read at least one Tom Clancy book.  A great many novels that we all know and love are really MS's or GS's.  Let's be honest here, what you really hate is to poorly written and often near-psychotic ramblings of the 14 year old emo crowd that flood ff.net and it's sister site, fp.com. 

Thank you! I'm not sure it's my cup of tea, but I'll try to take a look and wish you luck.

You're absolutely right. I'd add Laurell K. Hamilton's books to the list as well. I enjoyed the early ones, but they've gotten pretty over the top lately. Hey, I like smut as much as the next gal, but... I prefer a bit more perspective and context.

I also applaud your idea that limiting yourself to PG-13 content is unneccesarily limiting. I tend to like more 'adult' themes myself. That doesn't always mean actual sex, per se, but adult concepts and treatment.

I'd probably ramble more, but I have a story due... soonish 

[firegazer]

Fanfic is like anything else in the world - dependent on the person behind it. Unfortunately, we have a rather large amount of stupid in the world, so the vast majority of the people behind it are going to show through badly.

In short, as in the Harry Dresden universe: magic is neither good nor evil. It is a tool. (Yes, I am that geeky. No comments on that, please.)

As for the major arguments against it...

You can't be a writing elitest and say 'why not write something of your own' because not everyone wants to be a full-fledged author. Some people just watch a tv show or read a book and say "hey, I wonder what would happen if..." And if they later make the transition over to writing their own stuff because of this, that's all right as well. After all, we probably wouldn't have new writers if we didn't also have old writers for them to be inspired by. Fanfiction, though, is a hobby - and just like reading, or roleplaying, or even horseback riding, it doesn't need to have a purpose other than fun. That's what hobbies are for.

On the author's right to ban fanfiction: I agree. If you don't want people writing fanfiction, they shouldn't do it. But people shouldn't download music illegally either, and they do it anyway. Some things, you just can't help, and it's honestly not worth the expense it would take to track down one of your own fans and tell them off. And why alienate someone who loves your work that much anyway? (Then again, I happen to be terribly non-confrontational.) J.K. Rowling doesn't mind fanfiction, for example, as long as it isn't explicit - she's even mentioned that she looked through it some to see what the fans liked and didn't like about her books so far.

My personal opinion of fanfiction is positive. I've used it as an opportunity to develop random background characters, create new plots, and even try out very different writing styles and techniques. The best constructive criticism I've ever received has been from fanfiction, as I was lucky enough to find a very literary-minded group of 'ficcers' to help out. The difference between fanfiction and published material here is not to be understated - there's more people willing to read your fiction, as they already know they're interested in at least part of it, and there's less paranoia about ideas being 'stolen' (a ridiculous thought, but I suppose it's happened before). There's less stress, fewer deadlines, and the certainty of encouragement in the form of regular reviews.

In closing, I'd like to add that in my case, my fanfiction has not been a wasted effort at all. I have a very large, loyal base of readers begging me to tell them when my original book will be out so that they can buy it. If and when that book comes out (it's finished, and currently going through the submission long-haul), I will already have a convenient way to advertise it: on the next chapter of my story.

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

I've noticed that there seems to be a lot of hating of MS's/GS's as well.  Please, allow me to pop your bubble on this.  Most all of the Anne Rice books are MS's.  Wesley Crusher, from StarTrek, is a GS.  Jack Ryan is a classic GS and I cannot help but think that you've all read at least one Tom Clancy book. 

I do not think this makes the point you may want it to make, in that what this says to me is that Anne Rice and Tom Clancy are complete rubbish, which does actually concur with my experience of reading same. [ I think Interview with the Vampire  has flashes of potential and I kind of wish she'd got a decent editor who had encouraged those flashes instead of allowing her to turn into the ego-monster she now is. ]

I mean, really, did anyone watching TNG not hate Wesley Crusher and want him to die ?

I'm not saying that there aren't people to whom MS/GS are an appealing fantasy.  I just don't think I've ever seen an example of MS/GS fiction that's actually been any good or had any lasting success.  The closest I can think of is the Count of Monte Cristo, and the uncut text of that, and the better film versions, do make it very clear that while he is getting to be very wealthy and exact intricate revenge on his enemies, he's also completely deranged and not being presented as a sympathetic figure.

[Yeratel]

Fanfic is like anything else in the world - dependent on the person behind it. Unfortunately, we have a rather large amount of stupid in the world, so the vast majority of the people behind it are going to show through badly.

Yeah, that's been my experience with most of it I've read. OTOH, the first piece of fiction writing I actually got paid for ($50) was a Sherlock Holmes pastiche short story in a magazine.

[JRBobC]

Just the $0.02 of a reader.  Disclaimer I am not an author and doubt I ever will be.  I would not be able to write myself out of a hole in the ground that I dug myself. 

Anyway, as a reader my only real complaint about fanfiction is when the author's take the established story(ies) and character development and toss it out the window because it isn't what they wanted.  Unfortunately the only case in point I have is Harry Potter fans.  In particular the shippers.  When JKRowling had Harry/Ginny Ron/Hermione, some people went off the deep end and cried foul and stated vehemently that they were going to "write" the real Book 6, the one where Ron dies and Harry ends up with Hermione, yadda yadda yadda. 

As far as I am concerned as a reader I am just along for the ride.  I want to watch the journey, the end isn't all that important to me.  I also tend to have more faith in the fact that the author knows more about whats going on with their stories than I do.  Since ya know it is their baby.  Like I said I am just an observer.

[meg_evonne]

First, I'm new to this concept of fanfic--so you just guessed my age.  If you're really dense I've got it on my profile.  Further I am a successful business women by genes and personality. 

This world is hard enough for the artist or the writer to make a decent living without their intellectual material being taken away from them.  The heart of this matter is the business of intellectual rights.  Jim Butcher owns the Dresden Files & it's franchise unless he has expressly given or sold those rights.  No ifs, ands or buts about that folks. Even the scriptwriters who hadn't read all the books, were still hired and paid under his permission! Of course YOU, a dedicated fan, wouldn't write that Murphy's Dad was shacking up with a hooker in FL--but they had permission to do that. Hopefully they learned their lesson and heaven help us----a G__ D___ JEEP!

OUCH, I hear you yelling at me.  Stick it out with me a little bit longer okay?

Jim Butcher has kindly invited us into his home (mind) to play.  It's just nasty and wrong to walk out the door with his sofa, don't you think?

If you are using fanfic to learn in private, great! It seems one hell of a way to hone in on one part of writing, ie character or action or dialog, etc while borrowing the world created by another.  You JUST DON'T have the RIGHT to ever publish, share, distribute, or even have a friend or colleage read it without permission of the original writer.  It's Jim Butcher's grey matter, not yours.

Besides, face facts.  Once you've done it and then go back and read one of his books, ya just want to tear up what you did anyway because it just plain stinks next to the original.  I suspose that's why a lot of authors don't care about fanfiction.  Even so, you should still should leave the sofa where it belongs and don't rearrange the room, okay?

Good writing all!  OUCH, okay--so some of you still want to lay into me---go for it, as long as it's creative critism you sling back at me!  Remember, I'm an OLD LADY! 

Meg in IA

[the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh]

Jim Butcher has kindly invited us into his home (mind) to play.  It's just nasty and wrong to walk out the door with his sofa, don't you think?

It's entirely up to the author whether fanfic counts as stealing their furniture, though.  I know at least one person whom Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman have given specific permission to write Good Omens fanfic, and I have no problem at all with the existence of that, but if any of my fiction were to see print, and anyone were to fanfic it, I would hunt them down and sever their heads slowly with a hacksaw.

[Yeratel]

Jim Butcher has kindly invited us into his home (mind) to play.  It's just nasty and wrong to walk out the door with his sofa, don't you think?

It's entirely up to the author whether fanfic counts as stealing their furniture, though.  I know at least one person whom Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman have given specific permission to write Good Omens fanfic, and I have no problem at all with the existence of that, but if any of my fiction were to see print, and anyone were to fanfic it, I would hunt them down and sever their heads slowly with a hacksaw.

There are only two cases where it's okay to publish stuff using another author's characters: 1. When the characters are in the public domain (Dracula, Beowulf, etc.) and 2. When the copyright owner gives advance permission or hires the characters out (Star Trek novels, Buffy comic books, etc.). If some fan wrote and tried to publish the untold episodes of Harry and Elaine's teenage years, or the classic love story of Thomas and Justine, then Jim Butcher would have every right to whack them on their pointy little heads with the big hammer.

[firegazer]

Anyway, as a reader my only real complaint about fanfiction is when the author's take the established story(ies) and character development and toss it out the window because it isn't what they wanted.

Actually, I don't have too much of a problem with it, as long as it's not grotesquely stupid (such as Goth!Hermione or Emo!Harry... actually, the last might be canon, I correct myself). Even then, the point is that you can't say 'only good writers are allowed to write fanfic' - because how are you supposed to pick those out, or even enforce such a silly rule? As for alternate "ships", I actually rather like some of the weirder ones. After all, it takes a certain sort of talent to write something crazy like "George/Hermione" or "Oliver/Ginny" and make it not only believable, but entertaining. And, of course, we come back to the point that JK Rowling has specifically allowed her fans to write fanfiction. I think she might have a good deal fewer fans, even, if she said no. Most fanfic writers will respect if an author says no, but they'll see it as being a little needlessly paranoid, and their respect for that author drops some. One of the bigger jokes in the fanfic community is that Anne Rice says no to fanfiction - considering all of her stuff is highly derivative, and most of it really isn't that great.

There are only two cases where it's okay to publish stuff using another author's characters: ...2. When the copyright owner gives advance permission or hires the characters out (Star Trek novels, Buffy comic books, etc.). If some fan wrote and tried to publish the untold episodes of Harry and Elaine's teenage years, or the classic love story of Thomas and Justine, then Jim Butcher would have every right to whack them on their pointy little heads with the big hammer.

I only know of a few total nutcases who have ever tried to publish fanfiction, unless you count free web sites and archives that are explicitly there for such things. And most of those archives will refuse to web "publish" any fanfiction for authors who have explicitly stated that they don't want anyone writing fanfiction for their works. No one makes any money off of fanfiction unless they're Tom Stoppard and "Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead" is the title. If someone does try to make money off of their baby fanfic, most of the rest of the ficcers roll their eyes at them and talk about how stupid they are on their forums. Some people even email them to mention that it's not legal. You can't ask much more.

If you are using fanfic to learn in private, great! It seems one hell of a way to hone in on one part of writing, ie character or action or dialog, etc while borrowing the world created by another.  You JUST DON'T have the RIGHT to ever publish, share, distribute, or even have a friend or colleage read it without permission of the original writer.  It's Jim Butcher's grey matter, not yours.

There's a very big difference between stealing furniture (a common argument, which I really don't understand) and writing a derivative story. The furniture is worth something. The story is worth less than nothing, and by using it, you're not taking anything away from the author who wrote the original - in point of fact, you are advertising for them, in a sense. No one is going to read your fanfic and decide they don't need to read the original book. I have, however, read fanfiction from one of my favorite fanfic authors in a world I haven't ever heard of, and decided that I needed to get the original book from that. Howl's Moving Castle, for instance, I hadn't even heard of until someone on my f-list wrote a one-shot for it - I picked it up at the bookstore that following weekend and thoroughly enjoyed it.

In essence, there is a big difference between limiting a product and limiting a thought. You can, and should, stop people from stealing furniture. You can't stop someone from reading a book and going 'what if'? and neither can you stop them from writing a review of a book based on what they thought of it. It's a bit of an extention, but consider a fanfic a kind of positive review of a book - as in, I liked it so much that I wanted to try writing more of it.

Besides, how else do you think Harry Potter readers survive the long dry spells between books? I'd bet you a lot of money that there's a HP fanfic on quite a few of those readers' favorites lists. Dirty little secret. Mark it up as keeping up enthusiasm between book releases - another plus for fanfiction.

[BolshevikMuppet]

I think fanfiction is both good and bad for aspiring writers.

For me, it's helped me grow in regards to the voices of different characters, and how to keep those voices separate, and obviously different from each other.  I've been writing fanfiction since I was twelve, and it's definitely fun as a writer to be able to create the episode of a show that you always wished would've happened, or to expand on a character's thoughts that you don't necessarily get to see during a particular scene.  It's great writing practice.

The bad thing, however, is growing lazy and too accustomed to the simplicity that fanfiction writing provides us.  I, for one, have trouble coming up with my own in-depth characters, as for so long I've just borrowed other people's. 

I think from the creator's standpoint, fanfiction would be both insulting and a compliment - a compliment because people care enough about your characters and your world to want to play in it, want to further the bounds of that world.  An insult, though, if they stomp all over your characters or have terrible grammar or bad jokes or something.  Joss Whedon openly, wholeheartedly encourages fanfiction, whereas Anne Rice has threatened to sue fanfic writers.  I suppose it depends on how seriously the creator/author takes themselves and their stories.  Fanfiction can only serve to further popularize the work of the original creator/author, so I don't see why some writers get so bent out of shape about it.  Again, if it were done in an insulting manner, I could understand it.  If I were Joss Whedon, I doubt I'd much appreciate some of the pairings people dare to create - Giles/Spike, Dawn/Faith, etc.  Or if I were Anne Rice, I wouldn't want to read some badly-written account of Mona getting it on with Louis.  But whenever I personally find a new obsession, one of the first things I do to familiarize myself with it and its characters, is find out what kind of fanfiction is out there for that particular fandom, and read all of the good ones I can find.  And if there aren't any good ones, it's not long before I start writing one myself.

[Qualapec]

If you are using fanfic to learn in private, great! It seems one hell of a way to hone in on one part of writing, ie character or action or dialog, etc while borrowing the world created by another.  You JUST DON'T have the RIGHT to ever publish, share, distribute, or even have a friend or colleage read it without permission of the original writer.  It's Jim Butcher's grey matter, not yours.

Heh...okay. I didn't have a problem up until you said I didn't have the right. Especially about sharing it with personal friends. That bothers me. First ammendment, lady. And people put their ideas out for the whole world to see. I don't see the harm in expanding on that idea, especially if:

I put a disclaimer at the beginning of every chapter.

I don't make chicken scratch doing it.

I honestly don't see how I don't have the right to have fun if it doesn't. hurt. anybody.

Why is this such a contraversial issue? Nobody. Makes. Money. It's. Something. That's. Enjoyed. Need I spell it out more clearly for you?

~She-Wolf

[Yeratel]

Heh...okay. I didn't have a problem up until you said I didn't have the right. Especially about sharing it with personal friends. That bothers me. First ammendment, lady. And people put their ideas out for the whole world to see. I don't see the harm in expanding on that idea, especially if:
I put a disclaimer at the beginning of every chapter.
I don't make chicken scratch doing it.
I honestly don't see how I don't have the right to have fun if it doesn't. hurt. anybody.
Why is this such a contraversial issue? Nobody. Makes. Money. It's. Something. That's. Enjoyed. Need I spell it out more clearly for you?

If you think it's not a copyright violation just because you're not getting paid for it, you're wrong. Write for your own amusement, fine, share it with a friend, fine, but publish it to the world at large, including via a free web site, not fine.
If you want to show the world at large what a nifty writer you are, instead of stealing some other writer's ideas and characters, write something original.

[Jan1228]

For my own 2¢ I like slash fan fiction when I can find someone who writes well. 
BTW, does anyone know where I could find Dresdenverse slash?

[meg_evonne]

"The furniture is worth something. The story is worth less than nothing, and by using it, you're not taking anything away from the author who wrote the original." from Firegazer.

A story is worth a great deal, especially if it is your income.  Anyone who has actually written and struggled through a true manuscript would NEVER say that a story is worth less than nothing, published or not.

Please rethink your statement.  The reason you hear the furniture analogy frequently is because it is completely applicable.  Intellectual property is owned by the person who created it.  That is the essence behind all the copywrite laws. 

As I said if you are using it in private to learn, great.  If you are putting it out on the internet, which I consider to be the same as publishing you are "taking" the property of others. Perhaps someone with more law experience could address the internet issue as I'm certainly not an expert on it.  I'm pretty sure that an e-book is copywrited the same as a paper manuscript?

I really appreciate the quote from BolshevikMuppet, with which I thoroughly agree.  "The bad thing, however, is growing lazy and too accustomed to the simplicity that fanfiction writing provides us.  I, for one, have trouble coming up with my own in-depth characters, as for so long I've just borrowed other people's."  The challenge is to create those characters and do them well.  Applause to BolshevikMuppet!

Meg in IA