Counter-spelling Wards

[Taran]

Other than attacking a ward and adding the extra shifts of success to weakening the ward, is there any other, more subtle, way to bring them down?

Could you counter-spell them?

[Haru]

I would think so. Though the "monkey with a wrench" approach is most often going to be much easier. If you want to go for a counter-spell, you'd need to get the number of shifts the ward is worth, including triggers and duration. It'll be more subtle, it will not activate any trigger, and the wizard might not even realize his ward is down, but you have to get all the shifts together with one evocation. With an attack, you can often ignore large parts of the wards complexity.

You could go the "take control" appllication of a counter-spell attempt, if you want it even more subtle. The attacking wizard needs to get at least 1 shift more than the original wizard has put into the construct, then he can use it as if it was his own. Which means he can let it fall apart, of course, but he can also reprogram it to let him pass or to reduce the original wizards power inside. This should probably take a ritual though, not just an evocation.

[Wolfhound]

shifts the ward is worth, including triggers and duration.

Just for another PoV, in our game the shifts spent on duration, triggers, and any special conditions (wardflames, people that can pass freely, etc.) are not included in the difficulty to bring down a Ward by whatever method - just the final Strength.

(By not quite perfect analogy) bringing down the castle wall is a matter of the strength of the wall's stonework... arrow loops, battlements, murder holes, interior rooms and their contents, or light fixtures don't matter to the siege engine's payload as it comes crashing in.

Now, we could have easily gone with the other way (higher target number). We just chose the smaller number value to keep it more interesting. It allows NPCs that aren't on the 13-14+ refresh level to actually still be a threat and the Wards to be treated as just a single step of a layered magical security system, not the "be all, end all."

And to the OP's original question

Could you counter-spell them?

In our game we allow this, and taggable Aspects include assistance from other spellcasters doing applicable and generally Lore-based "magic-y" things that sound like they might boost the Counterspell (up to and including doing a weaker "counterspell" that counts as a Maneuver to hand it off to the main spellslinger making the roll).

[Arcane]

What about veils or blocking to slip past wards by preventing trigger mechanisms from detecting you?  Or glamour or versimilomancy to fool a ward into thinking you're one of the people allowed to pass freely?

[Taran]

What about veils or blocking to slip past wards by preventing trigger mechanisms from detecting you?  Or glamour or versimilomancy to fool a ward into thinking you're one of the people allowed to pass freely?

How would that work, mechanically?  I'm assuming whatever glamour/veil you're using needs to beat the block of the ward?

[Haru]

Just for another PoV, in our game the shifts spent on duration, triggers, and any special conditions (wardflames, people that can pass freely, etc.) are not included in the difficulty to bring down a Ward by whatever method - just the final Strength.

(By not quite perfect analogy) bringing down the castle wall is a matter of the strength of the wall's stonework... arrow loops, battlements, murder holes, interior rooms and their contents, or light fixtures don't matter to the siege engine's payload as it comes crashing in.

There's a difference, or at least to me there is. I can attack the ward, sure. If I do that, I can ignore the duration and such, as I am only concerned about the actual strength of the ward. But that means I am in danger of setting of triggers and such. If I counter-spell the ward, I am deconstructing it, so it won't go blow up in my face.

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

I imagine that deactivating a ward (as opposed to simply blowing it up) would take a fairly high Lore roll just for the the "attacking" character to be able to detect/learn what kind of ward it is and how it is built.

[GryMor]

The Ward defends itself. Knocking a ward of power R and complexity C down in one shot takes power 2*R+4. My personal rule of thumb on rewriting a ward (seizing control of it, changing the triggers, etc) is complexity of R+C. Some of the tags for doing so as a ritual will almost certainly come from analysis of the existing ward and declarations about how you are adjusting and leveraging the existing ward rather than simply overwhelming it.