Line of Sight and Beginning the Battle

[PirateJack]

Something I've noticed over the course of my campaign is that there's very little way to spring surprises on my players. This is mostly because you have to establish the groups prior to battle, in order to establish initiative. So unless I dedicate a couple of creatures to being stealth heavy (which limits their uses in other areas) or giving them Glamours/Veils (which gets a bit boring after a while), it becomes all but impossible to spring surprises on my players. It's also giving them free metagaming opportunities because they know exactly how many enemies they're going to be facing before the fight even starts.

I've tried experimenting with introducing the NPCs to the battle in tiers, so that minions will go in first to wear the PCs down a bit, then some heavy hitters and support mages. Then the boss battle. It's left a sour taste in my mouth though, since by all rights the PCs should be able to detect the ones out of the battle in some way (one of my PCs is a bulky speedster, so he plays scout fairly often).

I've also contemplated starting every battle with each (non-Hulking Size) NPC with a +1/+2 default stealth roll to their name, with exceptions for situations where it wouldn't make sense. That or I'd limit Alertness checks to the zone the characters are in at the time (again with exceptions for things open areas and the likes).

So how do you guys do it? I'd appreciate any advice you're willing to give because this is one of the bigger problems I've found since starting this campaign.

[Mr. Death]

I'm not sure I understand the issue--outside of an out-and-out ambush or deliberate deception, why shouldn't the players know what they're up against once the fight starts?

[Haru]

I'm with Mr.Death, I don't really understand your problem.

But if you don't want to give your NPCs high stealth, just let them use some aspects, if they want to hide from the fight.

Or maybe have a group of NPCs nearby that comes in a bit later, after they hear the fight break out.

Or do something completely unsuspected:
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,28668.855.html


What exactly is it that's bothering you? Is it any different in other games? I couldn't think of any I know, so if you have an example of that or an example of what you would like to do, I guess it would be easier to help you.

[PirateJack]

Okay, for example.

A few sessions ago my group went up against a scourge of Black Court Vampires. They'd managed to pinpoint the building they were using and decided to attack. So, before the battle started I did all the stuff the rulebook says to (lay out the zones, tell my players what they're facing). Now, here's where I have the problem.

By all rights the entire BCV scourge is within hearing range. It's not a big building and my PCs aren't really going for the stealth approach. So, do I tell the PCs about all of the Black Court inside the building or should I wait until they actually join the fight? Would an Alertness/Investigation roll allow them to get around that?

[blackstaff67]

You wouldn't tell them anything about how many BCV's are there unless they have some supernatural way of determining that.  Short of that, they'd find out the vanilla mortal way" going through the building room by room until all such critters are found (the ones that can't Veil or run away, at any rate).

[Haru]

Well, in a case like that, they see what they see. If they attack the scourge without investigating them, and at least roughly know their strength and numbers, then they are going in blind, and it is well within your right to keep them in the dark.

But there is another thing to consider. It's hard to get it to work, but if it does, I think it can really add to the game. Remember, you are telling the players, not the player characters, what is going on. The player characters see what they see, nothing more. But the player can make an informed decision about what he wants his character to do. A wizard player can stay off the magic until he can unleash a big spell to eliminate most of the scourge with one hit. Yes, that's pretty powerful, but it's also pretty cool, and at least to me, seeing cool stuff happen is a big part of why I play.
If you can get away from the "GM vs. Player" mentality, I think it is a great thing to do. But if the players feel that they have to fight you, instead of their characters fighting the BCV, you are probably better off with keeping them in the dark.

[Mr. Death]

If the contents of the other zones isn't something the characters would know, I see no reason the players should know--in this instance, I'd just give them the information they'd have from the view point the characters have. The GM is perfectly allowed to add and subtract opposition during the battle, and that's essentially what this would be--the fight starts in Zone 1, which has 4 vampires in it. When the vampires in Zone 2 hear what's going on, or a character goes into Zone 2, then those vampires are added to the battle.

That the players should know what they're up against applies in an immediate sense, but not necessarily in an absolute sense.

[Hick Jr]

I'm with Mr. Death here. If you're going to tell them where every foe is and the whole layout of the map, then you should trust them not to metagame.

[PirateJack]

Yeah, I think I'll go with telling the players about the enemies they can see, rather than relying on them not metagaming (which is a problem for my group).

[cold_breaker]

Yeah, I think I'll go with telling the players about the enemies they can see, rather than relying on them not metagaming (which is a problem for my group).

A point that should be made here: this is how it should be done. This gives you (as a GM) pacing ability back. What I mean is, if you have a cool idea that adds more concepts to a fight, you can just have them pop up and pretend that you planned it that way, rather than having to explain to the group that you've had a good idea. Or if you had more planned, but the first wave seems to be kicking ass, you can veto the enemies reinforcements. This'll keep those combats from getting out of hand unnecessarily without your players knowing just how much or how little you're stacking the deck on them. Obviously, this isn't about the fight having the result you want so much as a way to keep it from getting boring in a bogged down and boring scene that you'd like to move on from.