Direct Worldwalking Complexity?

[Hick Jr]

Where would you set the complexity of a world walking effect that's basically a teleport-gate? A direct transfer from one spot to another, instead of using the Nevernever?

This was seen in the end of Changes and the beginning of Cold Days.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Hick
Page numbers? For curiosities sake.

I'd imagine the complexity would be fairly high. The RAW says to model complexity based on the number of zones/barriers you'd have to cross. The idea in the narrative being that the Earth Space Time is a bit inflexible I guess!

How far were you looking to travel? Because if it was to the otherside of even a small county I'd imagine that would be grossly complex (based on the RAW).

[Hick Jr]

I don't have my book with me and both of the occasions involve pretty huges spoilers, so ill tag them. Warning- changes/CD spoilers ahoy.

(click to show/hide)

When Odin draws a "lightning door" at Chichen Itza, allowing the Fellowship to travel back to Chicago directly, and when Mab creates a door directly to Michigan Avenue from the heart of Arctis Tor, in Harry's lair.

It's depicted as something you need to be really powerful to do, but I think anyone who could muster about 20 or so shifts of Worldwalking might manage it.

[Dr.FunLove]

Both instances you name, the individuals in question are in the Plot Device level of power. Going by the guidelines in the RAW you're talking like...hundreds of complexity, depending on how a GM adjudicates "zones and borders" across continents. Worldwalking, going into the NeverNever, is the RAW and canon's preferred way of transport.

If the Senior Council was hot to sign a pact with Winter or Summer at the start of the war to ensure their ability to travel (as an example), I think it is safe to say that most beings must use Worldwalking verus direct Teleportation.

[Haru]

The question that is more important than the complexity of the spell should be what are you attempting to do?

Are you getting a beer out of the fridge while you are planning the attack on the vampire nest? That's flavor, not much more.
Are you trying to rip the heart out of your enemies chest? That's a taken out result, and will likely be about 30 shifts.
Do you want to arrive somewhere at a fortunate time? Take a page out of the true believers book (Guide my Hand).
Do you want to get away from a desperate fight? Go for a concession.

There really is no one size fits all solution. Most often, things should be done differently, ddependig on the intention

[Dr.FunLove]

@Haru
If I am not mistaken Haru, Hick Jr's intention is to teleport sans worldwalking a la the examples he used from canon. Which, as I noted, were performed by Plot Device-level Powers. The canon and RAW both come down hard on the idea of teleportation.

[Haru]

I know. But if you decide teleporting should be possible in your game, then it's possible, I am not going to argue with that. I was just suggesting to think of it in terms of intent rather than task, because it works better in Fate.

[Dr.FunLove]

Alright, so the intent is to move from one continent to another instantly. The rules in the RAW put that outside the realm of the possible. How would you advise Hick Jr to model it?

[Hick Jr]

I'm not really sure why that's impossible. A standard "get to the Nevernever" worldwalking costs about 5 shifts. I wouldn't even make one of my players roll. A difficulty of about 30 shifts seems pretty reasonable for a Thaumaturgy thing.

If that seems unrealistic given the power level of the only beings seen doing this in the books, keep in mind that Old One-Eye did this at the drop of a hat, meaning he can do a 30 shift ritual as a matter of course. Performing something like this probably isn't unreasonable for the Gatekeeper, if you gave him about an hour. Doing it in 30 seconds? Plot device level power.

Point secundus- 32 shifts is enough to explode someone's heart out of their body from literally anywhere. That is an instant, no-save-just-die on anyone who doesn't have a Toughness power.

[Dr.FunLove]

You're talking about instantaneous travel versus travel through the NeverNever. Those are two different methods of: Teleportation and Worldwalking. Both the canon and the RAW seem to frown on the later and prefer the former.

It's clearly not impossible, just so expensive for a being that isn't a god-like entity as to make it impractical.

EDIT: Of course, you can always handwave/Fate Point and say It's Magic! I'm simply discussing normal conditions based on the canon/RAW.

[Haru]

Alright, so the intent is to move from one continent to another instantly. The rules in the RAW put that outside the realm of the possible. How would you advise Hick Jr to model it?

You missunderstand me entirely. Getting there isn't the intent, it's the task. The intent would be why you want to get there. If you just want to go there, and you already established that teleporting or instant nevernevering is part of the game, why would you roll? Just say "ok, you are there. What now?".
It becomes interesting, if you want to use the teleporting to do something special. Do you want to get into the museum to steal something? The worldwalking roll replaces the burglary roll for getting inside.
Do you need to get somewhere instantly, because you are pressed for time? Make it a contest against who or whatever you are trying to stop. If you come short, take a consequence to make up the difference, saying you couldn't control the landing or you got a splitting headache from the effort. That way you get there in time, but at a cost reflecting the danger of the action. Or you are lucky and don't need that.

But I just don't think that "it takes X shifts to teleport around the world is a good solution for fate.

[Dr.FunLove]

@Haru
I also don't think it is a good solution to hand wave through the canon and the RAW completely. Sure you can do it but then my question is why is one playing a game set in the Dresdenverse? Something like this, instantly teleporting, contravenes the established canon quite a bit (in my opinion/interpretation etc etc.).

Intent or action, whatever word you want to use, shouldn't completely ignore canon/RAW just for narrative or mechanical convenience. Right?

[Haru]

I don't think so.

What's "narrative convenience"? To me, it would be "changing the setting in a way that it pleases me more". And I can't see why that's a bad thing. True, Dresden says that teleporting is not really doable, but to heck with that. I want to play Dresden Files WITH teleportation. What's wrong with that? The book even says, if you don't like something, change it. It talks about killing Harry off in Storm Front, for crying out loud. If that's ok, teleporting really shouldn't be a big deal.

Second, "mechanical convenience". And yes, it is absolutely ok to handwave certain things. I look at it like things from novels or movies. Indiana Jones, for example. All the travel parts are Indy sitting in a plane with a map overlaid and the big red marker following his path. You don't see him drive to the airport, buy a ticket, wait to board, board, get a drink, get off the plain, get his baggage, and so forth. You could roll for all of that in a game as well, but it would get kind of boring after a while. And I see the same thing applying for teleporting as well. If you are just using it to get from A to B, without there being anything really important about it, why roll at all? I wouldn't make you roll drive to see if you can get to the other side of the city to the next scene, it doesn't matter if it takes 20 minutes or half a second, it's just where the story continues. If you need to get somewhere in time, however, I would make you roll on both, to see if you get there in time (by getting 15 shifts in 3 exchanges, for example).
It just isn't fun to calculate the difficulty for about half an hour, roll and the situation is forgotten 3 seconds later.

Or lets look at it this way: If you can teleport, the city you are playing in can be a whole lot bigger. Instead of your favorite restaurant being two blocks away, it's two states away. That's about all that's really to it. If you roll to drive down town or teleport across the country to get to the bad guys, dramatically, it is pretty much the same thing, and that's what counts. Don't make it any more complex than it has to be.

Or even another example. Let's say I'm really good at this nevernever teleporting stuff. Now I'm fighting someone and he tries to disarm me. I can successfully defend against him, so I can keep my sword.
OR, because I think it is much cooler that way, I say he slapped away my sword, but I instantly move my hand to the left, opening a rift to grab my sword as it whirls through the air. In the end, the result is the same: I still have my weapon. But, at least to me, the portal way is a really cool way to narrate this. It doesn't matter how high you would have to roll to open a portal, it's just part of this action and only flavor. Of course, I could get a stunt that let's me do maneuvers like that with lore or something similar, and get even more cool effects out of it, but that's another discussion entirely.

It's all about what I make of it, what's the impact on the story? If it doesn't have any impact, why roll? If it has a minor impact, why require a huge roll? If it has a plot point impact, any roll seems rather weak, so just treat it as a plot point.

[Dr.FunLove]

It can't be wrong (persay) if it's my opinion Haru, which I think I said. So I'll invite you to moderate your...enthusiasm. Thank you.

If you want to play in your own private Dresden themepark where you make up the rules as you go that's fine. The way Hick initially asked their question made it seem like he wanted to know how to model the concept of Teleporting via the exisiting canon and RAW. Again, I would ask you to moderate your accusatory tone here. No one is saying Hick CAN'T Teleport or lobby for it in a game they are in - I was simply discussing how the existing canon and RAW view that.

The fact that Hick is asking out to model something mechanically makes me think that he was asking for Teleportation in a scene where the ability to travel DID matter. Which would require rolls, of course. When I mentioned hand waving, it was in that context - one where the roll MATTERS not in any other one. Also, I specifically say one could just say It's Magic! and Fate it away where applicable.

I'm not sure why you are trying to make an argument in this post or what you are even arguing for or how it is even relevant. If you're saying you can/want to ignore the canon/RAW that's fine for you of course but I wonder then if this is the best game for someone who feels that way. If you're saying you want to change the existing in-universe rules for some interesting in-story reason, then that's cool of course and I'd like to hear more about that.

However, I don't think you have helped answer Hick's question other than to say "fuck it, do it live". I'm all about doing it live, but I don't think that really helped answer the question. If your natural inclination is to attempt to say that I am wrong again, please check that - if I missed a point please feel free to restate it but summarize.

TLDR: Check the attitude, keep on topic, you're free to do what you want but there is a canon and a RAW that exists as a guide in DFRPG that I think should be kept in consideration.

[Haru]

I just meant the "wrong" as a short way to say "that's not my opinion" in response to your "Right?". I apologize, if it came out as an attack, that was absolutely not intended. I'll edit it out.

My point, in essence, is that "how high should the complexity for X be" is not the best question to ask. It highly depends on the circumstances surrounding it, and without knowing those, the question can't fully be answered. That's why I was giving so many different examples, to show what teleporting can mean and how different the application can be. From Hicks's post, I don't fully conclude if teleporting actually matters in the situation or not, and I was trying to show the differences.

It felt like you were insisting that teleporting just isn't done, that's why I expanded on that point the way I did. Again, no attack intended, but "if you do X, it's not dresden" sounds like "you're doing it wrong", too, and that felt, well, wrong to me.