Maneuvers

[ReignMaker]

Hey folks! I just started playing DFRPG, but I have a question on maneuvers. When you do a maneuver to say, for example, force someone "prone", is there any other affect other than being able to tag the aspect? For example, are they unable to stand until they do a maneuver to remove "prone"?

Thanks!

[cold_breaker]

Generally no. The name of the maneuver is mostly just fluff. I'd generally not call prone a maneuver, as it implies a state or disadvantage as opposed to an advantage. Flanking, good footing, high ground are all examples of preferred maneuvers.

I usually make disadvantages blocks - something that keeps you from doing something. 'Knocked prone' might be a good example of a short term Athletics block.

[ReignMaker]

That's really helpful - thanks!

[Haru]

I have to protest. The names of aspects are definitely not just fluff. If you hit someone to make him lie prone, he is lying on the ground with everything that entails. If you want to keep him down, then you'd do a block. Or maybe even a grapple. But if the other guy is "prone" and wants to run away, I would first make him get up again. There is not much sense to let someone run if he is lying on the ground, after all.

A maneuver is not just a mechanical way to introduce an advantage for yourself or a disadvantage for someone else, it changes something about the scene, it introduces a new fact. A character is lying on the ground, the curtain is catching fire, you move a chair between yourself and your opponent, and so on. The fact should be regarded as being true, not just as being there.

[cold_breaker]

I have to protest. The names of aspects are definitely not just fluff. If you hit someone to make him lie prone, he is lying on the ground with everything that entails. If you want to keep him down, then you'd do a block. Or maybe even a grapple. But if the other guy is "prone" and wants to run away, I would first make him get up again. There is not much sense to let someone run if he is lying on the ground, after all.

A maneuver is not just a mechanical way to introduce an advantage for yourself or a disadvantage for someone else, it changes something about the scene, it introduces a new fact. A character is lying on the ground, the curtain is catching fire, you move a chair between yourself and your opponent, and so on. The fact should be regarded as being true, not just as being there.

I said 'mostly' - but again, look at the rest of the explanation.

To put this in other terms - prone is not a maneuver. Prone is a state of being. It might be the RESULT of a maneuver, but in of itself it is not a maneuver. A good rule of thumb is if it would stop you from doing something it's a block. If it just gives other people an advantage over you (such as bad footing, being flanked, etc.) then it's a maneuver.

AKA, if the implications of the situation are anything other than fluff, it's not a maneuver.

[Mr. Death]

You're getting mixed up, cold_breaker. "Prone" isn't the maneuver, "Prone" is the aspect created by the maneuver--reread the original post, he said a maneuver to make someone Prone. Giving someone the "Prone" temporary aspect is, in fact, a perfectly fine maneuver.

To answer his question, though, yes, the aspect only has "real" effect when it's tagged or compelled. The person who made the maneuver (or someone on his team) can tag it, or the GM could compel the maneuver to prevent him from taking actions that wouldn't make sense for someone Prone.

And no, the text of a maneuver is anything but fluff.

[cold_breaker]

Erm, might want to reread yourself. He's asking if there are any other effects of the maneuver other than being able to tag it once. You just listed the way he /could/ tag it... which to be fair, is narratively driven by the effects of the aspect.

The answer is that you don't get any extra advantage from a maneuver other than one free tag. That tag can be used for things other than to assist a roll perhaps, but it's still one free tag and that's it.

[Mr. Death]

Erm, might want to reread yourself. He's asking if there are any other effects of the maneuver other than being able to tag it once. You just listed the way he /could/ tag it... which to be fair, is narratively driven by the effects of the aspect.

I was referring to your argument about how "prone" wasn't a maneuver, and pointing out that the original post says Prone would be the result of the maneuver.

The answer is that you don't get any extra advantage from a maneuver other than one free tag. That tag can be used for things other than to assist a roll perhaps, but it's still one free tag and that's it.

Nope. It can also be invoked or compelled even after it's tagged.

[cold_breaker]

Nope. It can also be invoked or compelled even after it's tagged.

Alright then, when does 'prone' go away?

 For reference, I'm saying it's not a very good example of a maneuver. I'd probably require an attack roll to knock someone prone and build it up as a block against athletics. It borders too much on consequence territory, albiet a short lived one.

EDIT: I'm realizing I sound hostile. My apologies. I think I'm getting a little carried away here - if I'm wrong, I want to know why.

That said, you're basically making the maneuver action act as both a block and a maneuver in this instance, which seems game breaking to me.

[Haru]

It borders too much on consequence territory, albiet a short lived one.

Also known as a maneuver aspect, exactly.

If you want to push someone to the ground, you are changing the scene, that's an aspect.
If you want to keep someone on the ground, you are defending the status quo, that's a block.

You can't make someone do anything with a block.

[ReignMaker]

Also known as a maneuver aspect, exactly.

If you want to push someone to the ground, you are changing the scene, that's an aspect.
If you want to keep someone on the ground, you are defending the status quo, that's a block.

You can't make someone do anything with a block.

Ok, so just to clarify, with pushing someone to the ground, do they need to remove the maneuver to stand, or just say, "I stand up"?

[GryMor]

Alright then, when does 'prone' go away?

I make a bull rush maneuver to apply 'Knocked Prone' to a target. If I match their defense, the 'Knocked Prone' aspect is applied to the target and I get one free tag, but the aspect goes away as soon as it's tagged. If I exceed their defense, the 'Knocked Prone' aspect is sticky and I get one free tag, even after the free tag is used it is still there, can still be invoked or compelled until a successful action is taken to remove it.

In general, you maneuver to apply conditions to scenes, disadvantages to enemies and advantages to allies.

Giving a slightly more concrete example from the defenders perspective, after Joe bull rushes me, applying 'Knocked Prone', I could take an action to stand, stripping off Knocked Prone, but maybe I'd rather self compel Knocked Prone and maneuver to scissor Joe's legs, hopefully applying 'Grappled Legs' to Joe so my friend Bob can Haymaker Joe and end this brawl. Being more cinematic, and netting me a fate point, I'm likely going to do the compel.

Edit:

Ok, so just to clarify, with pushing someone to the ground, do they need to remove the maneuver to stand, or just say, "I stand up"?

They need to remove the aspect, which may be rather easy but is going to eat an action.

[Mr. Death]

Alright then, when does 'prone' go away?

Until they make a dedicated action to remove it, or it stops making sense--if nobody's paying attention to the guy, then there's nobody keeping him prone. Personally, if nobody's taken advantage of an aspect on someone for three or four rounds, I tend to wipe it.

For reference, I'm saying it's not a very good example of a maneuver. I'd probably require an attack roll to knock someone prone and build it up as a block against athletics. It borders too much on consequence territory, albiet a short lived one.

I think you're very much mistaken. Knocking someone prone is a perfect example of a maneuver. A maneuver is a temporary change to a person or environment--and knocking someone off their feet is exactly that. You're making it too complicated. Consequences are, by definition, aspects that last a little longer than normal.

That said, you're basically making the maneuver action act as both a block and a maneuver in this instance, which seems game breaking to me.

No, I'm really not. I'm saying that knocking someone over is a maneuver--that maneuver can be tagged, compelled, or invoked later, but it's still just a maneuver. It can be compelled or invoked for effect--not a block, just to say, "Okay, you're prone, that means if you take this fate point, you can't leap through the window this round."

[Elkhorn]

Alright then, when does 'prone' go away?

Well, Grymor beat me to this explanation (and did a great job) - I'm just adding more detail...

That depends on the strength of the aspect.  I'll see if I can run through an example (This may just be how our group handles it, but I'm pretty sure it's within the RAW):

Character X wants to knock character Z prone.  This is a contested maneuver - X would use an appropriate skill (Athetics or Might, for example), and Z would get to defend using similar skills.  X has to beat Z to place the aspect "Prone," but how long it lasts depends on the difference in the roll.  A tie places the aspect for 1 exchange, but it's "fragile" - 1 tag and it's gone.  Any shifts in excess of that makes the aspect "sticky" for that many exchanges.  (So if X beats Z by 2, the aspect is sticky and stays for up to 2 exchanges - taggable for free, plus further FP invokes).

Duration depends on Spin.

For Z to get rid of the aspect before it runs out, Z has to do a maneuver of his own - essentially a "counter-maneuver."  In this case, I'd argue that Athletics is really the only viable skill to remove "Prone" (But hey, get creative!)  If no one is around, hit a 3 and you're done.  Of course, if X is still there, it becomes contested (X would want Z to stay prone), with Might or Athletics to "defend."  As long as Z beats X, the aspect goes away.

You may want to "counter-maneuver" with a fragile aspect if you have a chance, but it's much more relevant with sticky aspects.

I showed a variation on this in a webisode on the Dresden Files: Dallas site where "Disarmed" was the aspect in play: http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/dfd/adventure-log/warding

On the note of block vs. aspect: if you want to *hold* the person prone, that sounds like a grapple to me, but that just my opinion.

[Haru]

Ok, so just to clarify, with pushing someone to the ground, do they need to remove the maneuver to stand, or just say, "I stand up"?

Until they make a dedicated action to remove it, or it stops making sense--if nobody's paying attention to the guy, then there's nobody keeping him prone. Personally, if nobody's taken advantage of an aspect on someone for three or four rounds, I tend to wipe it.

Wanted to say pretty much the same, so I'll just say +1 instead.