Story based actions that you wont even allow a roll for - too railroady?

[Dr.FunLove]

Haru: great points. I believe that it is important to the integrity of the story that players don't try and game it - there must be a seperation between what the player knows and what the character knows. What ways have you found in FATE/DFRPG to break players of that behavior?

[Haru]

I'll let you know as soon as I find out.

Honestly, I believe it requires players with a certain mindset. That mindset can be cultivated to a degree, but often it has to be done against years of negative reinforcement from other games ("you didn't say you look for traps in the 23rd room, so you are dead now."). I can't say I'm completely free of this myself, but I'm working on it. To the point that I am no longer compatible with some of the rules of the older games. In one game I'm in, I just do my thing and the GM figures out how I'm supposed to roll. Next step: introduce them to Fate.

[Dr.FunLove]

Haha...interesting. I think a lot of that comes down to a failure to communicate. That is something that I feel FATE/DFRPG tries to encourage a little more.

[Wolfhound]

To the point that I am no longer compatible with some of the rules of the older games. In one game I'm in, I just do my thing and the GM figures out how I'm supposed to roll. Next step: introduce them to Fate.

This. It actually bothers me now that I can't introduce Aspects when they would add to a scene in some other system.

[cold_breaker]

That's not the player trying for an outcome, that's the character.  Except that the character doesn't know what Aspects or Fate Points, or 'Tags' are in the first place, and so doesn't need to know how many would need to be involved in order for them to succeed at their task.

In doing so, you deny the players the ability to play their characters effectively, evocatively, and often, satisfyingly.
Without such information, they cannot make the necessary decisions as to whether or not they should spend resources that do not exist in the game-world, but nevertheless affect it.
The character is doing research.  The player is spending FPs (or not, depending on whether or not the they deem it worth their while).

I disagree. All your doing by telling them explicitly what you're going to give them for certain rolls is turning FATE into a video game. This isn't fallout, where you see three options and if you have a high enough bluff skill you can chose that one, otherwise you chose one of the other two options. In the spirit of Dresden especially, my view of it is the players have to do the best they can with the information they've got, and hope they aren't too far off the mark.

Again, I'm not advocating not telling your players the targets - quite the opposite. By and large you should be telling them - especially if they ask. But if they don't even know IF there is a target? I'm not going to tell them, no.

An example. My players characters walk into a building that they are not sure the fleeing suspect went through - they immediately begin searching for clues that the bad dude came through here. He did by chance, but he covered his tracks well, using some magic talent that the group does not know he has yet. I'll ask for a roll - if the group asks, I'll give them an estimate difficulty - normally it might take a 3 in survival to spot something like that on the average mugger. They roll a 4 and move on, but a 5 or a 6 might have revealed signs of his passing and, possibly, that the tracks were covered magically.

Now why did I do that? Well, firstly, because as a story teller, I think it'd be more interesting if the players (not just their characters) didn't know that the bad guy went that way - but do want to give them a fighting chance of succeeding, even at this early juncture. I also would like them to think outside the box - catch the bad guy with cleverness and guile or else they will simply be outsmarted by the bad guys who make a point to rule out the more obvious ways of defeating them. The bad guy cant exactly out smart them if I just tell them that he's raised the difficulty, can he?

Now, this might not be everyones take on it - but I don't think it ruins anyone's fun to withhold meta game info just because of the fate point system. So I stand by my statement - if they don't know that there IS a target to hit, there's no reason to tell them.

[Taran]

In one game I'm in, I just do my thing and the GM figures out how I'm supposed to roll. Next step: introduce them to Fate.

In d&d, I introduced declarations using skill rolls.  It worked to an extent.  The mechanics are already there for props:  high ground gives a +1, flanking a +2 etc..

As they got higher level, the declarations got wilder and more epic.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it's a bit weird but it added a certain level of neat.

[Sanctaphrax]

All your doing by telling them explicitly what you're going to give them for certain rolls is turning FATE into a video game.

I think we need a new variant of Godwin's Law for RPG discussions.

Because I've seen this video game comparison a whole lot of times, and it never really makes sense.

[Wordmaker]

I think FATE requires that everyone at the table keep a different mindset to mos traditional games. You're playing for the story, good and bad, not to win. So as much as the GM must be able to trust the players to not abuse information, the players must be able to trust that the GM will play fair with events in return.

[cold_breaker]

I think we need a new variant of Godwin's Law for RPG discussions.

Because I've seen this video game comparison a whole lot of times, and it never really makes sense.

Hehe. Sorry. Personally I cant help comparing this to playing Warcraft as a kid and using cheat codes - sure, it was fun for a bit... but it was a whole lot more fun when you had to actually work to achieve something, and there was a very real chance of screwing it up. Not sure if it makes sense to you, but to me its a worst case scenario. I think I used Fallout because it's more similar and shows how quickly people game the system even when playing by the rules.

[Sanctaphrax]

No, that doesn't make sense to me.

How does knowing which number you need prevent you from having to work to achieve something?

[Wordmaker]

I'm with Sanctaphrax on this. Knowing what I have to do to achieve my goals makes me want to work harder, because I know how to distribute my resources.

[Haru]

I disagree. All your doing by telling them explicitly what you're going to give them for certain rolls is turning FATE into a video game.

Explicitly not so.

In Fate, you roll when there is something interesting in the outcome, good or bad. You establish what you want to do and what's going to happen if you fail. After that, you go through with the roll or the conflict, and you know what you are fighting for or against.

That is to say "You get out alive" and "You will be taken prisoner" are examples of success vs. failure. You do not have to tell them that, if they are taken prisoner, they will be sacrificed to a demon, that can be a reveal in setting a later scene.

An example. My players characters walk into a building that they are not sure the fleeing suspect went through - they immediately begin searching for clues that the bad dude came through here. He did by chance, but he covered his tracks well, using some magic talent that the group does not know he has yet. I'll ask for a roll - if the group asks, I'll give them an estimate difficulty - normally it might take a 3 in survival to spot something like that on the average mugger. They roll a 4 and move on, but a 5 or a 6 might have revealed signs of his passing and, possibly, that the tracks were covered magically.

Now why did I do that? Well, firstly, because as a story teller, I think it'd be more interesting if the players (not just their characters) didn't know that the bad guy went that way - but do want to give them a fighting chance of succeeding, even at this early juncture. I also would like them to think outside the box - catch the bad guy with cleverness and guile or else they will simply be outsmarted by the bad guys who make a point to rule out the more obvious ways of defeating them. The bad guy cant exactly out smart them if I just tell them that he's raised the difficulty, can he?

This is a perfect example. What has been gained by not letting them know anything? They are fresh out of clues to follow and are now treading in place.
Instead, make it interesting. If the players fail their check, the suspect is leading them into a trap instead of simply running away. There you have an interesting turn of events.

On a side note, why are they going into the building if they aren't sure if the suspect went in there? This tends to reinforce the "I look for traps" behaviour I was talking about earlier. This, to me, seems far more video gamey than telling the players what's going on. Though I don't like the comparison here either.

Now, this might not be everyones take on it - but I don't think it ruins anyone's fun to withhold meta game info just because of the fate point system. So I stand by my statement - if they don't know that there IS a target to hit, there's no reason to tell them.

If there is no target, there is no scene. Especially with something like a chase, there are great ways you can go. Make it a contest between the fleeing suspect and the players. His magic can come into play there as well, of course, but the players know they are following someone, so let them roll against each other, not just try to hit a number or hit a wall. You can still describe things like "the players are not sure if the suspect went through here", but that is part of a bigger action, and not a bottleneck.

[Wordmaker]

All of what Haru said.

In FATE, every bit of the game should be fun, whether the characters succeed or fail. Even failure should progress the plot, and the players should never be left waiting for the GM to provide a hint about what to do next.

[InFerrumVeritas]

I really like the Fate Core way of approaching rolling.  You want to know this piece of information?  Here's the Overcome difficulty.  You want to gather information to get the upper hand?  Roll to create an advantage, here's the difficulty.  If you succeed by enough, you get boosts and other goodies. 

Now, I don't always tell my players the difficulty.  Specifically when rolling Lore, I'll ask for a roll and pass out a sticky note with the information on it (so they can decide to share it with other players).  I like an element of mystery in my games, and my players are okay with it.  My group is paranoid, but they're also very interested in telling a good story.  As long as the "something bad" which will happen if not played optimally doesn't result in direct harm to the character (instead, it results in a complication of the story), they'll go along with it. 

[Taran]

I sometimes don't give a target number if time is a factor.  I'll say it's a Lore extended test.  Each roll is one day and then let them spend the time...it adds tension if they don't know they'll succeed on time

Other times you need to give them a target number. "the target is 5 and the time is one day".  So now, if they get a 7, they can use those two spare shifts to reduce how much time it took to find the info.  I think that's important.