Meta concept of how the DF will/is playing out [CD, MM and BAT Spoilers]

[knnn]

the reason given for why it would open elsewhere was different.

Fair enough, but then you really do have a seeming contradiction re: the shed in TC, the Fetches in PG and Ways in general.

[Ms Duck]

Fair enough, but then you really do have a seeming contradiction re: the shed in TC, the Fetches in PG and Ways in general.

the NN seems to change, albeit at a slow rate. Many of the predictions made by Maggie sr 40 years ago still work just fien, for example.

And yet, still only a miniscule fraction of a fraction of a fraction of even our solar system, much less the universe as we know it.

Of course, if they can unfold those extra dimensions into something more akin to 3D space, then that's all fairly pointless, as a straight line can involve curves and other wacky spacetime shenanigans to make the distances whatever anyone wants.

as the vast majority of the N N must be traveled by foot, the concept of it being much larger is irrelevant.

let's be honest, it would take you longer to get to the nearest star then the universe has time left

furthermore, Magic in the df seems to work much like gravity- it warps reality around it, in scale to the amount of magic. Thus, having the NN only be 'so large' sits with me just fine.

[Tami Seven]

The alternate universe story in Buffy is the classic "how the world would look if "x" didn't happen" story. Specifically, a scorned women has a wish that "Buffy never came to Sunnydale" (Harry never came to Chicago) granted, and the episode explores the effects that has on the various characters lives - most importantly that Buffy wasn't there to stop the big bad Master from Season 1. Interestingly, the events in the alternate universe play out in accordance with an important prophecy from the real world, with a different ultimate outcome, largely because Mirror Buffy (who is still the Slayer and still trying to save the world) is more of a ruthless warrior like the Morgan or the Merlin than a compassionate savior with loyal friends.

If he wanted to parallel that story, he'd have to change a defining moment in Harry's life and see what happens. For example, Harry might not have killed Justin or maybe he was never orphaned in the first place, which means Harry might never have stopped the Three Eye Drug and Victor Sells could be the kingpin of a magical drug cartel ruling Chicago.

There is a certain perverse irony to the idea of using a "what if Harry never came to Chicago" considering Jim's story about how he originally wanted to set the Dresden Files in Missouri, but his teacher convinced him to choose another City.

If most of the Supernatural activities still occurred in Chicago, but Harry decided to settle down in ...which city was that again?....then a lot of things might never have happened. 

[knnn]

the NN seems to change, albeit at a slow rate. Many of the predictions made by Maggie sr 40 years ago still work just fien, for example.

While probably correct, ^this^ has nothing to do with Harry's comment about how you can't follow a wizard into the NN because two different wizards opening a portal in the same place in RW will lead to radically different spots in the NN.

[Serack]

Fair enough, but then you really do have a seeming contradiction re: the shed in TC, the Fetches in PG and Ways in general.

At first I thought  you ment The Shedd in SmF.  If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things.  Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.

I think those apparent contradictions could be remedied by considering the intent though. 

The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN. 

I had a prof in my junior year who was lecturing on mathematical fields do a pretty good job of explaining how you could topographically map an infinite plane onto a sphere.  That took some mind bending.

[knnn]

At first I thought  you ment The Shedd in SmF.  If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things.  Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.

Actually, I was talking about the storage rental space Harry hides Michael in.  The back wall of the storage room "coincidentally" opens up directly onto a "way".

Heck, what about Harry's basement?   You've got to assume that anyone stepping into the NN from there had to run into Lea's garden, otherwise what's the point?  How about Corpsetaker's NN defences?  If a portal opens to a different place depending on which wizard opens it, how can you ever have a single point of defence?

[Ms Duck]

At first I thought  you ment The Shedd in SmF.  If instead you mean the portal Harry used to get to Edinburg from Chicago (I think it was near a slaughterhouse) that was monitored by the contracted out P.I. and Mouse, yah, that certainly seems to contradict things.  Plus Harry's experiences following his Mother's advice.

I think those apparent contradictions could be remedied by considering the intent though. 

The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN. 

I had a prof in my junior year who was lecturing on mathematical fields do a pretty good job of explaining how you could topographically map an infinite plane onto a sphere.  That took some mind bending.

in one of my applied classes, during the final exam the computers crashed. I had some pastels in my art bag, and we all ended up sketching our final topographies

[knnn]

The underlying point I was trying to make though, is that it isn't necessarily a 1:1 topographical correlation between the mortal world and the NN. 

I don't remember the textual evidence I have for this, but consider the following thought experiment:

1) If the NN:RW mapping is not 1:1, than there exists a point (call it omega) in the RW that maps to two different NN points.  Specifically, opening a portal from the NN to the RW from either of those two points will get you to omega.  (Talking here about the same wizard at the same time, same state of mind -- assume that all the hidden variables are identical).

2) Now open a portal from omega to the NN.  Presumably, you have to get to one of those two spots.   Unless you say one of those spots is chosen randomly (which opens a can of worms, as now you have have to open a portal multiple times, until you get the right one), that means there's a deterministic method for choosing where the portal from omega goes to.

3) So I have a case where I open a portal from the NN to RW, step through, close it and right away open it again, and step back into the NN in a totally different spot. 

I'll admit that I cannot recall any textual evidence that proves beyond doubt that this state of affairs is impossible in the DV, but if the NN:RW mapping really works that way, I submit that it would be the norm rather than the exception (it's a mapping -- this will be happening everywhere), and Harry would have explicitly mentioned it.

[Serack]

I don't remember the textual evidence I have for this, but consider the following thought experiment:

1) If the NN:RW mapping is not 1:1, than there exists a point (call it omega) in the RW that maps to two different NN points.  Specifically, opening a portal from the NN to the RW from either of those two points will get you to omega.  (Talking here about the same wizard at the same time, same state of mind -- assume that all the hidden variables are identical).

2) Now open a portal from omega to the NN.  Presumably, you have to get to one of those two spots.   Unless you say one of those spots is chosen randomly (which opens a can of worms, as now you have have to open a portal multiple times, until you get the right one), that means there's a deterministic method for choosing where the portal from omega goes to.

3) So I have a case where I open a portal from the NN to RW, step through, close it and right away open it again, and step back into the NN in a totally different spot. 

I'll admit that I cannot recall any textual evidence that proves beyond doubt that this state of affairs is impossible in the DV, but if the NN:RW mapping really works that way, I submit that it would be the norm rather than the exception (it's a mapping -- this will be happening everywhere), and Harry would have explicitly mentioned it.

Harry has been told, and has observed many times that he has a lot to learn about opening gateways.

Here are some thoughts that might pertain to your gedanken experiment.

1)  Vadderung opened a Gateway at Chichen Itza that went straight to Chicago.  I'd bet good money that if Harry opened a Gateway in the exact same place it would go somewhere else.

2)  Every time Cowl opens up a portal, where ever it may be from, it has the same smells and it is implied it is to the same place.  Peabody's portal near the end of TC seems to be to the same place as well.  It wasn't stated in the text that the physical Edenburg exit Peabody ran to was or wasn't the one that leads to the way that Harry uses to get to Chicago, but it is quite likely that most other gateways opened by wizards other than Peabody's don't go to where Peabody's opened to.  In fact, I think the text pretty much even states that if Peabody's had closed Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the same place.

Finally, the Gatekeeper's comments about Harry's making it to the Outer Gates, make me think that there may be places in the NN that don't directly map to the mortal world.  This may be too much supposition, especially when you consider that Jim has said things that imply that you could get there, you would just have to find a different way that would get you to the surface of the moon first.

[knnn]

Harry has been told, and has observed many times that he has a lot to learn about opening gateways.

I don't disagree, if I ever had a chance to sit down with Jim, figuring out the "physics" behind the NN would be cool topic.


Here are some thoughts that might pertain to your gedanken experiment.

1)  Vadderung opened a Gateway at Chichen Itza that went straight to Chicago.  I'd bet good money that if Harry opened a Gateway in the exact same place it would go somewhere else.

Per the beginning of CD, that's a very special case (as when Mab opens a door from AT to Chicago).  I don't think we can use this as an example.

2)  Every time Cowl opens up a portal, where ever it may be from, it has the same smells and it is implied it is to the same place.  Peabody's portal near the end of TC seems to be to the same place as well.  It wasn't stated in the text that the physical Edenburg exit Peabody ran to was or wasn't the one that leads to the way that Harry uses to get to Chicago, but it is quite likely that most other gateways opened by wizards other than Peabody's don't go to where Peabody's opened to.  In fact, I think the text pretty much even states that if Peabody's had closed Harry wouldn't have been able to get to the same place.

I'll have to re-read that one.  Actually, making a comprehensive "portal use" might be a good thread.  In any case, this is obviously fundamentally different from the Ways, where there are fixed openings.  I've got a theory where a NN:RW connection becomes more "solid" the more it is used (i.e. people expect it to always open in the same place -- so it does).  Thus, Ways are very stable because they are frequently used -- the equivalent of paved roads between the NN and the RW.  However, anyone can go off the main path and end up somewhere.

Finally, the Gatekeeper's comments about Harry's making it to the Outer Gates, make me think that there may be places in the NN that don't directly map to the mortal world.  This may be too much supposition, especially when you consider that Jim has said things that imply that you could get there, you would just have to find a different way that would get you to the surface of the moon first.

Yeah -- what would have happened if Harry had opened a portal back to RW at the Outer Gates (or heck, even at AT back in PG -- he certainly threatens it in CD)?  Any kind of mapping means that the other side of the portal must be somewhere in the RW (unless there isn't a full coverage) -- though having it open up to the moon or the bottom of the ocean might per a damper on things...

[Serack]

Some more NN theorizing:

I believe it was in GP that Bob talked about dreams and shades making pockets in the NN.  I had intended to mention Agatha Hathorne's pocket in the NN in my last post but forgot, and you beat me to it elsewhere. 

It's interesting that Lea can walk into Agatha Hathorne's NN pocket from elsewhere on the NN side of things...*

So thinking in terms of Chicago and the NN, there are probably multiple dimensions of the NN that are overlayed over the Mortal plane (I prefer that term over RL)

• There is the plane that Harry cruised around during the beginning of GS,
• The plane that Harry cruised around in during the rest of GS that parrallels the Mortal plane close enough that he could see most of what was transpiring in it, but most mortals couldn't percieve back in the other direction (I'll call this the GS plane). 
  • I suspect most of "Heaven's" crew normally typically operate on a seperate plane that Uriel took Harry too at the end of GS.  One that even the "ghostly attuned" can't percieve
• Then there are the pocket planes that can be overlayed between that GS plane and the Mortal Plane that are shaped from the will of certain mortals or mortal shades like the shade of Agatha Hathorn.
• Planes that can be brought to be by supernatural beings
  • Mab and Titania's "over chicago" battle royalle plane specifically mapped the topography of the land it overlayed.
• Various "Ways" and portions of Fae and other NN realms (I.E. Hades, down below, olympia, whatever) that topographically connect to the mortal realm because of similar natures.  This seems to mostly** be a seperate set from all the above.
• I suspect there are parallel dimensions that split off based off of mortal decisions and such.  These dimensions are things that beings like Uriel have enough oomph to have domain over as I mentioned in my OP.
• Interestingly, judging off of what Lea mentioned in GS about records of human experiences being stored in places other than their wetware, plus some of Harry's experiences with Lash, I suspect there are levels of existance where these "records" exist, and I highly suspect that beings of angelic nature exist on/have access to them.

Interestingly, sufficiently powerful beings seem to be able to shape a preexisting portion of the NN to their desires, not unlike a construction crew can shape a hillside for a subdivision.  Remember Evil Bob's Normandy, and Lea's garden.

Harry's "Nevernever" term is a catch all term that refers to all of the above plus more that he might not even be aware of (not unlike his usage of the term "demon"). 

By the way, it is my opinion that Harry's trip to the grey fuzzy areas of life and death have given him a certain affinity to these extra planar portions of the NN in such a way that he can possibly visit them or otherwise capitalize on (or be capitalized on from muahahaha) them in ways that other mortals can't. 

Edit:  Also, tying back to the earlier discussion of 1:1 vs n:n topography, I suspect that numbers of these "planes" could be accessed with a "gateway" from the same spot on the Mortal plane with the proper intent and perspective.

*Lea exists on more than one plane though, as evidenced by her being corporeal to Ghostly Harry
**emphasis on "mostly"

[knnn]

Very nice summary.

Should also point out that in GS, Harry thinks to himself about creating a demesne for himself, so possibly shaping isn't that hard -- though I suppose it might just be the "bubble" sort that Hagglehorn created.

[Serack]

Very nice summary.

Should also point out that in GS, Harry thinks to himself about creating a demesne for himself, so possibly shaping isn't that hard -- though I suppose it might just be the "bubble" sort that Hagglehorn created.

I edited the earlier post to add:

"Edit:  Also, tying back to the earlier discussion of 1:1 vs n:n topography, I suspect that numbers of these "planes" could be accessed with a "gateway" from the same spot on the Mortal plane with the proper intent and perspective."

Btw, it follows from the statments at the end of the earlier post and that edit that Harry might now have access to this "intent and perspective" when he didn't pre-GS.

[Serack]

And this does all tie pretty well into the "meta" concept of the origional post.

[knnn]

Case in point -- the thread started off in one place, went through the topology of the NN and came right back to where it started.