Author Topic: Thaumaturgic blocks  (Read 10083 times)

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2013, 06:12:57 PM »
I'm confused by the position that, something that is essentially transitory despite the duration (like a Thaumaturgy block), should be paid with by Refresh when a wizard has paid Refresh for Thaumaturgy. Disallowing a concept because of a GM's sense of balance is one thing, but saying to a wizard player "you can't do a thing within your bought Powers without buying more Powers" is...? How is that justified?

A wizard that shapeshifts using Thaumaturgy such that they gain claws, wings, and significantly enhanced regenerative capabilities pays for those effects as though they were powers.
This is the same concept.

It's not a taken out result.  The duration is one decade, but he might escape in a few hours.

I'm having a hard time trying to adjudicate this kind of thing.

And when you knock a character out, they may wake up in a few hours.  That doesn't make that a block, either.
Unless the time scale of the conflict is sufficient that 'a few hours' out of commission would not constitute defeat, then you've achieved a taken-out result by default.
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Offline Taran

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2013, 06:26:03 PM »
Maybe I just want to keep the guy where he is until the gang can get there and fight him...because he's a slippery one...or maybe I need more back-up...

Meanwhile the guy has time to try to escape...

I see your point, though, where something is just so hopeless as to constitute a take-out.  Taking someone out with Thaumaturgy is much more expensive then just blocking them from a single action.

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2013, 06:34:14 PM »
@Tedronai
I'm not seeing it. The block is created per the RAW, it can be broken down by those same rules. Temporarily trading one set of powers for another in your shape-shifting examples seems a bit like apples to oranges to me.


Offline Haru

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2013, 07:27:12 PM »
I'm confused by the position that, something that is essentially transitory despite the duration (like a Thaumaturgy block), should be paid with by Refresh when a wizard has paid Refresh for Thaumaturgy. Disallowing a concept because of a GM's sense of balance is one thing, but saying to a wizard player "you can't do a thing within your bought Powers without buying more Powers" is...? How is that justified?
Well, where do you draw the line? By the novels, transforming into a werewolf is a spell, so Harry could do it. By the rules, you can use free invokes on aspects to pay for temporary powers. Push the power of that spell high enough to last a few human lifetimes, and you have a wizard with werewolf powers for ever. Do that a couple of times and he has all the powers in the book and more, while he has the same refresh rate as other characters. If you want something that is an integral part of the character (and a shield that lasts that long should count as such), just pay for it (by taking toughness for example).

And it is sort of an arms race that leads you nowhere. I generally apply the rule that whatever the players can do, NPCs can do as well. So why not have an opposing wizard who has a similarly prepared anti-shield-spell ready, and your shield goes poof anyway. Ok, you make a bigger shield, I make a bigger anti-shield, you make a bigger shield.... and so forth. Why not just get on with the actual wizards duel already? Get into the juicy bits.

And part of the rules is the narrative justification. Granted, that will vary drastically from one person to the next, but to me, a spell that powerful (I mean, we are talking about laughing at a grenade that is exploding in your hand) should have some narrative justification, something that it is linked to, something it can draw its power from for all that time, and so forth. Creating a spell like that, would be a quest all by itself, which should take a really long time. And even then, I would use this as a justification to take a power, not give a permanent shield.

Long story short: mechanically it is absolutely possible, yes. In terms of what I consider an exiting story to play out, not very much.

Players who want something like this are usually those who take all the defensive powers they can get anyway, in my experience. Make the character bulletproof, so to speak. However, in Fate I don't really see the necessity for this, because you can talk about the lethality and deal with it accordingly. Your player doesn't want his character to die from physical wounds? Done. There is no need to make him mechanically bulletproof.
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Dr.FunLove

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2013, 07:31:07 PM »
@Haru
Ah...now that is fair. Narrative justification and not breaking anyone's fun should be key. That of course includes not setting out to intentionally "break the game". I'm still not on board with taking extra powers to justify something the existing powers can do, but the rest seems very fair.

Offline Taran

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2013, 07:39:00 PM »
@Haru
Ah...now that is fair. Narrative justification and not breaking anyone's fun should be key. That of course includes not setting out to intentionally "break the game". I'm still not on board with taking extra powers to justify something the existing powers can do, but the rest seems very fair.

See bolded: I think this was something recommended by the game designers.

Offline Cadd

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2013, 07:41:53 PM »
A long term spell payed for with refresh is to me the same thing as transforming and gaining claws etc, or performing a spell to boost your strength by getting one of the Strength powers. The spell is the justification to be able to buy it, either temporarily (with FP for a scene) or permanently (w Refresh).

To me, the fact that the time chart goes as high as it does isn't in itself allowing a spell to persist that long without something to bind it to. The time chart is there for a lot of other things aswell, not just magic. Each appliction has its own limits in what is possible. Just like I wouldn't let a mundane Research roll put shifts toward Reduced Time past an arbitrary limit based on the specific case, I wouldn't allow shifts to persistence of a spell past a couple of days without justification (such as something to anchor it to).

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2013, 07:47:15 PM »
@Taran
Interesting...reference for KNOWLEDGE? I'd be curious to read the justification on that.

@Cadd
My issue with that is that you've already paid Refresh to buy a Power that now only becomes the justification to buy other powers? Doesn't seem right to me.

#Time Chart/Persistence
Of course. But I think at this point part of the debate is that even WITH the appropriate powers and narrative justification certain uses of magic are being segregated with "no, you can't have that without paying more for it". Again, that doesn't seem right to the players that have paid that Refresh already.

Offline Cadd

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 08:00:41 PM »
@Cadd
My issue with that is that you've already paid Refresh to buy a Power that now only becomes the justification to buy other powers? Doesn't seem right to me.

Yeah, just like Beast Change works as justification to buy Claws, Inhuman Strength etc for a shapeshifter.

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »
@Cadd
Powers which one could model with magic as  transitory benefits. I see what you mean now though.

Offline Taran

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #25 on: June 14, 2013, 08:21:03 PM »
@Taran
Interesting...reference for KNOWLEDGE? I'd be curious to read the justification on that.

You know.... I know a guy who knows a guy...

It would be somewhere where Iago posted...I don't remember at all and can't even know how to  start to find it.

I agree with Cadd about the justification.  If I'm playing a mortal or someone of True Faith it really doesn't make sense to have shape-shifting abilities or to even get them temporarily.  Meanwhile, someone like, Injun Joe, who's a wizard now has that justification. 

He casts a big-assed spell and now he can shape-shift (he bought the powers)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2013, 08:27:25 PM »
Disallowing a concept because of a GM's sense of balance is one thing, but saying to a wizard player "you can't do a thing within your bought Powers without buying more Powers" is...? How is that justified?

That sort of long-duration personal block is not a thing that Thaumaturgy can do.

So it's not a thing within a Wizard's bought Powers.

Offline Taran

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2013, 08:31:06 PM »
That sort of long-duration personal block is not a thing that Thaumaturgy can do.

So it's not a thing within a Wizard's bought Powers.

I'm just confused over the distinction.

My first example was perfectly legit for thaumaturgy.  It was a long-term block against movement.

Why is a long-term block against attacks not ?

Dr.FunLove

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2013, 08:32:08 PM »
@Taran
Gotcha...I'll take a look around when I have have the time.


Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Thaumaturgic blocks
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2013, 08:37:01 PM »
I'm just confused over the distinction.

My first example was perfectly legit for thaumaturgy.  It was a long-term block against movement.

Why is a long-term block against attacks not ?

Because it's unfair.

I could come up with a bunch of justifications, but ultimately the reason is mechanical fairness.

Thaumaturgy's capabilities are very vague. It's up to us to define them in a way that makes Thaumaturgy balanced.