Mental Evocations solutions?

[Sanctaphrax]

That's because Sharks have the Aquatic Power and some relevant Aspects.

So if you want to give trolls a similar advantage, you should give them a Power and some relevant Aspects.

[Taran]

If you want to use something from your list, I think #5 sounds the most interesting.

I don't necessarly need something from the list.  It was just the stuff I came up with.  I'm obviously partial to this one, but it doesn't deal with spell casters who don't have the Sight.  And warlocks are the ones most likely doing mental attacks.

I suppose you could just do the equivalent.  Do something like a psychic grapple, and while in the grapple, you are subject to the rules of the Sight because you are being exposed to someone elses psyche.

[Troy]

If I were making rules for this sort of thing, I might try to model it on the concept that intruding into the mind of another affects the caster just as profoundly as it affects the target. The rules for a Soulgaze or the Sight are sort of built around this idea, which is one of the founding principles found in the Laws of Magic. Breaking those Laws breaks part of you in some way. I know that looking to the Laws of Magic isn't for balance issues isn't an answer, I'm just looking at the reasoning. There is a reason people don't do this. They're very scary, unstable people, or very skilled, or very foolish. Why? That's what I would look to to model rules if I were to do it.

Too Alien a Mind -- I think this could work like a Compel on the part of the GM vs the attacking character. You Compel any of the Aspects that identifies the PC as mortal and say something like, "I'm going to offer a Compel. Because you're a WIZARD PRIVATE EYE, you're but a mere mortal. Loki's mind is far afield and attempting to direct your Air Evocation as a Mental Attack just doesn't work the way you planned..."

That would at least give players an option to make a Mental Evocation by spending a Fate point. A Compel like this wouldn't be necessary when attacking a mortal, though. (Which might explain the Laws of Magic that govern mental intrusions, to curb the abuse of power mortal practitioners have over their own kind).

I have a question: I'm under the impression that someone always gets to Defend against an Attack, regardless of what kind of attack it is. Several times, I have seen contributors to threads say things that intimate that most (or some) targets couldn't defend against a Mental Attack. For example, do people let the targets of Incite Emotion powers Defend against them? Especially if using the Attack upgrade of the power?

[vultur]

I'm not convinced mental evocation requires close mental contact; you ought to be able to fire off a blast of "mental static".

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Why not simply create a Power that allows mental attacks with evocation?

And what would be an acceptable cost?

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I think I'd prefer a (large) cost in shifts rather than just dropping to weapon rating 0, which would make mental evocation scale differently from regular evocation.  Anyway, Corpsetaker totally ought to be casting high weapon rating mental evocations. And the Gatekeeper's sleep spell in TC.

I don't think balancing against psychomancy evothaum makes sense since psychomancy thaumaturgy is more versatile than evocation.

(I'm not sure mental attacks are THAT overwhelming; unless you have a Toughness power, which are far from universal, the only difference is the higher availability of physical armor... assuming you allow mental evocation blocks and defensive enchanted items. And I don't think Toughness powers are meant to be balanced assuming they're omni-applicable, given that the writers of YS seemed to allow for mental evocation.)

[Sanctaphrax]

Too Alien a Mind -- I think this could work like a Compel on the part of the GM vs the attacking character. You Compel any of the Aspects that identifies the PC as mortal and say something like, "I'm going to offer a Compel. Because you're a WIZARD PRIVATE EYE, you're but a mere mortal. Loki's mind is far afield and attempting to direct your Air Evocation as a Mental Attack just doesn't work the way you planned..."

That would at least give players an option to make a Mental Evocation by spending a Fate point. A Compel like this wouldn't be necessary when attacking a mortal, though. (Which might explain the Laws of Magic that govern mental intrusions, to curb the abuse of power mortal practitioners have over their own kind).

That could be interesting, but it wouldn't actually do anything to reduce the power of mental attacks. Compels pay for themselves.

I have a question: I'm under the impression that someone always gets to Defend against an Attack, regardless of what kind of attack it is. Several times, I have seen contributors to threads say things that intimate that most (or some) targets couldn't defend against a Mental Attack. For example, do people let the targets of Incite Emotion powers Defend against them? Especially if using the Attack upgrade of the power?

You do indeed always get to defend. But mental evocations are so powerful that your defence roll will almost certainly be laughably insufficient.

(I'm not sure mental attacks are THAT overwhelming; unless you have a Toughness power, which are far from universal, the only difference is the higher availability of physical armor... assuming you allow mental evocation blocks and defensive enchanted items.

Why not simply create a Power that allows mental attacks with evocation?

And what would be an acceptable cost?

Such a Power would basically be All Creatures Are Equal Before God, except free and integrated with Evocation. Actually it would be a bit better than that, since it would negate Speed and Size and since monsters tend to have worse Discipline/Conviction than Athletics/Endurance.

ACAEBG costs 3 or 4 Refresh, plus a FP each time you use it. Add maybe 2 Refresh because the new Power costs no FP, and another Refresh for hitting Discipline/Conviction and ignoring Speed and Size...so you get a cost of 6 or 7 Refresh.

I think I'd prefer a (large) cost in shifts rather than just dropping to weapon rating 0, which would make mental evocation scale differently from regular evocation.

It'll always scale differently, since mental stress and physical stress have different values. I prefer a flat 0 weapon rating because it doesn't make weak mental attacks impossible or strong mental attacks unstoppable. 

Anyway, Corpsetaker totally ought to be casting high weapon rating mental evocations. And the Gatekeeper's sleep spell in TC.

Sleep spells are probably physical, and Corpsetaker's stuff is probably thaumaturgy.

[vultur]

Such a Power would basically be All Creatures Are Equal Before God, except free and integrated with Evocation. Actually it would be a bit better than that, since it would negate Speed and Size and since monsters tend to have worse Discipline/Conviction than Athletics/Endurance.

ACAEBG costs 3 or 4 Refresh, plus a FP each time you use it. Add maybe 2 Refresh because the new Power costs no FP, and another Refresh for hitting Discipline/Conviction and ignoring Speed and Size...so you get a cost of 6 or 7 Refresh.

Mmm, but aren't Speed and Size powers costed on the assumption that they don't help with mental attacks?

Endurance and Athletics are probably more common, but not overwhelmingly so, I'm not sure the difference is that major (especially since this power would probably be mostly found on higher-refresh characters, and at those levels spellcasting arguably pulls ahead more.)  Humans, especially True Believers/KotC and practitioners, may well have better mental defense skills than physical. According to OW, Red Court Infected, Red Court and Black Court have equal or better Discipline than Athletics. Also, ghosts, spellcasting monsters, faerie nobles...

Also, really powerful mental attacks already exist. 3 refresh in Incite Emotion gets you a Weapon:4 mental attack, 4 refresh for ranged, and it only relies on one skill rather than 2-3 like spellcasting.

Still, you have to buy into that separately from physical attacks. So a high Refresh cost for mental evocation is legitimate... but it's also unworkable character-build-wise, and I don't think a Molly-type character using mental evocations should be unworkable.

So what about some kind of compromise Power that allows you to make mental evocations at a cost in shifts, but has a lower Refresh cost?

Something like....

MASTERY OF MIND [-2]
Your evocations can affect the minds of your foes.
Mental Attack Magic.  When you cast an evocation attack, you can reduce its Power by 3 shifts to make it deal mental stress instead of physical stress.
This does not allow you to perform psychomantic thaumaturgy effects, like reading minds, as evocation - you are still limited to evocation's options for effects.

Sleep spells are probably physical,

It... certainly would make explaining how it doesn't break the Fourth Law easier, but I really don't think so, since Harry talks about sleep spells being "grey magic" mind magic.

Now, maybe weaponized sleep spells work differently from regular sleep spells, but that seems counter-Occamian to me.

and Corpsetaker's stuff is probably thaumaturgy.

I think you really need weapon values (and probably pretty high ones) to get the overwhelming mental attacks she's got without making her a more powerful character than the Merlin.

[Sanctaphrax]

Mmm, but aren't Speed and Size powers costed on the assumption that they don't help with mental attacks?

Probably.

That doesn't make mental attacks any less powerful, and it doesn't make the ability to make them any less valuable.

Also, really powerful mental attacks already exist. 3 refresh in Incite Emotion gets you a Weapon:4 mental attack, 4 refresh for ranged, and it only relies on one skill rather than 2-3 like spellcasting.

If mental Evocation is a battleaxe, Incite Emotion is a thumb tack. Incite Emotion is accuracy 5ish weapon 4, and very few things can stand against it. Evocation can easily be accuracy 7 weapon 7.

So what about some kind of compromise Power that allows you to make mental evocations at a cost in shifts, but has a lower Refresh cost?

Something like....

MASTERY OF MIND [-2]
Your evocations can affect the minds of your foes.
Mental Attack Magic.  When you cast an evocation attack, you can reduce its Power by 3 shifts to make it deal mental stress instead of physical stress.
This does not allow you to perform psychomantic thaumaturgy effects, like reading minds, as evocation - you are still limited to evocation's options for effects.

Make it cost 5 shifts and 3 Refresh and it might be fair.

It... certainly would make explaining how it doesn't break the Fourth Law easier, but I really don't think so, since Harry talks about sleep spells being "grey magic" mind magic.

Still probably physical stress, mechanically speaking, because its take-out effect is totally physical and has nothing to do with anyone's sanity or self-image. Also, it's more balanced that way.

I think you really need weapon values (and probably pretty high ones) to get the overwhelming mental attacks she's got without making her a more powerful character than the Merlin.

You don't need weapon ratings. Accuracy 9 weapon 0 is plenty overwhelming for most characters.

[Mrmdubois]

In regards to fighting Sue, couldn't she just Invoke her High Aspect for Effect to render herself immune, she's technically a zombie and they aren't exactly known for falling for mental stuff, right?  Then again I guess that takes FP she doesn't have, but it seems like something some opponents should be able to do.

[Sanctaphrax]

Invoking your High Concept to become immune to an entire type of attack is kind of unfair.

If your concept involves being immune to mental attack, get a Power that makes you immune to mental attack. Canon doesn't have one, unfortunately, but that shouldn't stop you. The book tells you to homebrew, you should listen to it.

[Mrmdubois]

Fair enough, but I wasn't thinking of it as something for players.  Which might be the wrong stance to take.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well...technically you can do whatever you want with NPC mechanics and nothing will break. But it offends my sense of order.

Maybe I'm just too picky, I dunno.

[JDK002]

In regards to fighting Sue, couldn't she just Invoke her High Aspect for Effect to render herself immune, she's technically a zombie and they aren't exactly known for falling for mental stuff, right?  Then again I guess that takes FP she doesn't have, but it seems like something some opponents should be able to do.

I would personally treat this as a compel on the player using Sue's high concept.  Sure the player could use that as a Fate Point dispenser, but they would have to basically give up their action every round.  You could also probably justify doing this with demons, angels, outsiders, and any monsters that are generally considered mindless.

[vultur]

Make it cost 5 shifts and 3 Refresh and it might be fair.

Hmmm... maybe. Seems somewhat excessive for someone like Molly, who probably isn't casting evocations above 5 shifts anyway, but it does make it more comparable to Incite Emotion.

Could we make it 4 shifts/3 Refresh, which allows two 1-Refresh upgrades at +2 shifts, making it 5 Refresh?

I really do think 5 Refresh for no penalty is fairer than 6-7 comparing to ACAEBG, which is 3 Refresh but requires one fate point per scene.

Then add in Corpsetaker's +2 Fourth Lawbreaker bonus and you might be getting close to the sort of thing she can do in the books...

Still probably physical stress, mechanically speaking, because its take-out effect is totally physical and has nothing to do with anyone's sanity or self-image.

I'm not sure it's that clear-cut, if mental attacks (Emotional Vampire) can have a take-out effect of death.

You don't need weapon ratings. Accuracy 9 weapon 0 is plenty overwhelming for most characters.

Then how does Corpsetaker Take Out Luccio, who defends with probably Fantastic Discipline (at least Superb...) and has a 4-box mental stress track, and as a "significant NPC" ought to be able to take a mild and moderate consequence (and maybe an extra mild, though I personally doubt she deserves Superb Conviction), with one spell?

[vultur]

As a general point, I don't think mental attacks are meant to be costlier than physical ones, comparing Incite Emotion's At Range upgrade (1 Refresh, 1 zone range) and Lasting Emotion upgrade (1 Refresh, Weapon:2 mental attack) to Claws (1 Refresh, Weapon:2 physical attack) and Breath Weapon (2 Refresh, 1 zone range, Weapon:2 physical attack). Addictive Saliva and Emotional Vampire are 1 Refresh Weapon:0 mental attack powers, but they provide more than just the ability to make Weapon:0 mental attacks for that 1 Refresh.

[Wolfhound]

We just had a huge discussion about this in our game as well, we went with Weapon:X rating for attacks against non-physical stress is 2 Shifts per instead of 1 Shift per (i.e. kinda like what exists for Armor) - worked pretty well so far for us.