Is there a limit to the amount of power a character can put in a spell?

[Wordmaker]

Yeah, the example you're looking at there with Harry using the aspect for a +2 is an invocation, not a compel.

YS pg 106:

The only thing to keep in mind is that, if you’re
invoking an aspect on another PC or on a NPC
to gain an advantage over them, that character
will receive the fate point you spent, either at the
end of the exchange (in conflict, see page 197) or at
the end of the scene (outside of conflict).

Nowhere does it say that Fate Points from a compel are awarded at the end of a scene.

With the example you've quoted from the invocation of the aspect against the Shadowman, the only reason he gets the Fate Point at the end of the scene is because it's happening outside a conflict. If it were done during a conflict, the Shadowman would have received the Fate Point once the exchange was over and he'd suffered the effects of the spell.

[Taran]

Ah.  o.k.  Thanks for the clarification!

[Radijs]

Wow, I did not expect such a huge discussion to break out over my question.

I've perused the various reactions and I think it's helped me understand some of the limits that exist.
In the end it boils down to common sense and GM fiat. To put it bluntly.


Thanks for the help.

[Wolfhound]

I've loved this thread actually, it makes me very glad we put in the Thaum Houserules and Rules of Thumb we did for Dallas (basically a thematic nerf). Our house rules design focused on the Powering Phase.... and then retroactively worried about the Declarations Phase afterwards.

I know with Houserules, everyone has their own preferences, but ours have bene worked out / tested over 2+ years of play and we're very happy with them. The only reason I bother to post them is because I think it might be directly relevant to the OP's question and this discussion.

For the curious - a high level summary of our House Rules/Rules of Thumb.
Phase 2 - Spell Preparation/Meeting Complexity
0) The Given - The GM is responsible for making sure any Declaration is Thematically Appropriate
1) Declarations have to be thematically unique as well as capped to one Skill/one character contributing it. (I.e. for the casting of a single spell, only one character gets to claim a Resources Declaration: "High Quality Spell Components" - if an Assistant also wants to lend a Resources Declaration it has to be different, like "Upgraded Your Lab With Better Trappings")
2) All Declarations from a single character are slaved to the Time Increment table on page 315 starting with the "No Prep" Complexity value at "Instant" and the first Declaration at "A Few Moments." Declarations from Assistants happen in parallel and don't add additional increments. Time Increments determined from the Character with the most declarations (usually the caster). If the character needs fewer Time Increments than what this system determines - Fate Points required, 1 per reduction. Any skipped scenes or "extra time" is added after the base Time Increments is determined. Invokes and Sacrificed Consequences usually add no Time Increments.
3) Total number of "Assistants" that can add Declarations/Consequences is limited by the caster's skill level in a handful of skills (i.e. skill cap) - we use Rapport (how charming you are), Lore (you know the magical rules of using more folks effectively) or Discipline (you're just organized enough to run with a group of helpers).
Phase 3 - Casting/Powering the Spell
1) Exchanges slaved to the Time Increments table on pg. 315 starting at Exchange 1 with "A Minute." To take Fewer Time Increments requires Fate Points. Adding Additional Time is not applicable during Powering Phase. This only applies if the Spellcaster claims "Unhurried" / "Doing it in Downtime" - if the Spellcaster is willing to make Control rolls in-scene/during game (subject to GM compels and in-scene complications and interference), then each Exchange is "A Few Moments" but still limited by #2 below.
2) Caster limited to Discipline (how long he/she can focus) in Exchanges. Anything more requires Invoking an Aspect to gain an additional Exchange.
3) Any sacrificed Consequences for power, assistants lending power (Assistants must come from same group and limits determined during the Prep Phase), power boosts for Environment, power taken from objects that store power, or power provided by deals with Outsiders must specify which Exchange the "whatever" bonus is gained (this list of power sources taken from page 248 "Other Power Sources")

We found that by basically "capping" the Powering Phase and slaving it thematically to the Time Increments table... the rest takes care of itself. Yes, absurdly high Complexity spells are still possible (there's an evil fae in our campaign who kills 3 humans during the course of her highest forms of magic, with 2 assistants, that hits 75 Complexity)... but it's very, very easy for us to "Tell The Story of the Spell" now. We know *exactly* what the spell "looks like" due to the uniqueness requirement of the declarations.

(for example, the evil fae above, I can describe exactly how she does her spell, what it looks like - the description of each declaration - and how long it takes - a week for the prep phase - including kidnapping and torturing the victims, half an hour for the actual powering - including the actual slaying - which means I can also as GM exactly describe the effects in the campaign whenever she starts up one of her big spells and give clues to the PCs of what's going on .... kinda like in Storm Front - Harry vs Victor Sells. So long as I gain "Story" ... I'll put up with big numbers.)

Your table's mileage may vary

Money where my mouth is - Recently I took our house rules, worked up a spell, then wrote a piece of fiction based on a single spell so that I could visualize an implementation of "Norse Magic" I wanted to put in the hands of a handful of our NPCs (including some Norse themed bad guy Fae). So, using the declarations and time increments we worked up by the formula of our house rules, I actually set the scene. Basically... my "GM Notebook" exploded into crappy fan-fic. 

If you don't speak Irish the story title is simply "The Story of the Spell" (brón orm, ach b'fhearr liom an Ghaeilge )
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/dfd/adventure-log/an-sc-al-ar-an-t-ortha

[Mr. Death]

I quote:

You can delay the maneuver, but you can't just have it hanging around until you need it.

You can if the maneuver would logically last a long time--granted, even with the power of thaumaturgy, that's typically only going to be til the next sunrise, but it doesn't have to be instant. "The transient nature of maneuvers" doesn't refer to how long you have to tag--it just means that maneuvers are by nature temporary. And temporary could mean a wide range of things.

Also, there are exceptions made for how long you can tag--assessments, for example, are explicitly able to 'delay' the tag until you can actually use it, since it's unlikely you'd be, for example, looking up the weaknesses of a loup-garou in the same scene that you're fighting the loup-garou.

I don't see a reason for thaumaturgy-based maneuvers to follow the same thinking, provided they'd last long enough.

[Sanctaphrax]

In the end it boils down to common sense and GM fiat. To put it bluntly.

Yep.

You can if the maneuver would logically last a long time--granted, even with the power of thaumaturgy, that's typically only going to be til the next sunrise, but it doesn't have to be instant. "The transient nature of maneuvers" doesn't refer to how long you have to tag--it just means that maneuvers are by nature temporary. And temporary could mean a wide range of things.

Also, there are exceptions made for how long you can tag--assessments, for example, are explicitly able to 'delay' the tag until you can actually use it, since it's unlikely you'd be, for example, looking up the weaknesses of a loup-garou in the same scene that you're fighting the loup-garou.

I don't see a reason for thaumaturgy-based maneuvers to follow the same thinking, provided they'd last long enough.

That last sentence doesn't seem to fit the post. Did you leave out a "not" or something?

Anyway, the rules more-or-less explicitly say that the assessment exception doesn't apply to rituals. It's hard to read the relevant section any other way.

[Mr. Ghostbuster]

I dunno if this has been mentioned before but any worthwhile GM (or I, at least) would begin compelling your ritual at some point. Eventually the supernatural beings/factions in the area are going to notice somebody moving around ridiculous levels of power and most of them, if not all, are going to have a vested interest, at the very least, find out what you are up to, if not simply take you out. And the more power you throw around, the more people are going to take notice.

In theory you could completely rewrite reality with enough magic (Jim has said this much) but no one is going to let you pull that off.

[Mr. Death]

That last sentence doesn't seem to fit the post. Did you leave out a "not" or something?

Yeah, actually. It was probably a sentence I rewrote once or twice and it got lost in the mix.