Author Topic: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders  (Read 12992 times)

wizard nelson

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2013, 08:47:07 AM »
Dude thats^ awesome, thank you. :D

Oh snaps. yea you just helped me remember why I'd made a connection about something.*Slips off to post in pertainant thread*
« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 08:49:50 AM by wizard nelson »

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2013, 09:16:00 PM »
Man I really like this theory but it hasn't gotten much discussion...I'd really like to get it into the Recourse Section.

I do wonder (if this hypothesis is true) if we'll be getting an "attack the darkness!" gag before the series is through  :P.
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Offline TheCuriousFan

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2013, 09:41:20 PM »
It'll get transferred when it locks itself.
Currently dealing with a backlog of games.

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Offline Phobos

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2013, 09:50:33 PM »
Man I really like this theory but it hasn't gotten much discussion...I'd really like to get it into the Recourse Section.

I think this is an awesome theory. Great find!

Quote
I do wonder (if this hypothesis is true) if we'll be getting an "attack the darkness!" gag before the series is through  :P.

Don't underestimate the magic missle!  ;)

Offline TheRedPoet

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2013, 12:42:23 AM »
Damn it all, I was going to use the Genesis line in a fanfic. :p

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2013, 12:52:11 AM »
Well I'm not sure I can agree with it being ALL outsiders certainly it could be one.

Isn't there something in CD suggesting that all Outsiders might be one entity, or am I misremembering ?
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2013, 12:52:59 AM »
One should not google the answer to everything. Thats not real knowledge unless you retain it.

"Trust Google. Google is your real father."
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Traecer Jast

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2013, 12:54:23 AM »
Rule #1 before going to tech support did you google it?

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2013, 12:59:50 AM »
Isn't there something in CD suggesting that all Outsiders might be one entity, or am I misremembering ?

From the OP:

Quote
Tehom being the Outsiders also explains how the Outsiders can be a hivemind

Harry says it in CD yeah. Suspect info of course given how little anyone knows about the Outsiders but its still something.

What do you think of this theory Neuro?
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2013, 04:09:36 AM »
\
What do you think of this theory Neuro?

It sounds possible, but we'd need more information to come up with anything resembling an assessment of likelihood.  It's not grabbing my interest because I'm not seeing all that much in the characterisation of Tehom to make it very different from, say, a union-of-all-Outsiders entity that was called Azathoth; I'm not minded to take the whole "the Outsiders were driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history" bit in GP as plausible because we have a sixty-five-million-year-old tyrannosaur running around the place in DB as living(ish) evidence for the age of the DV being much larger than a human-centric scale. (And possibly also because I have a strong personal preference for multipolar atoreis, including multipolar reads on the DV, than Manichean ones.)
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 04:24:42 AM by the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh »
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2013, 05:54:53 AM »
It sounds possible, but we'd need more information to come up with anything resembling an assessment of likelihood.  It's not grabbing my interest because I'm not seeing all that much in the characterisation of Tehom to make it very different from, say, a union-of-all-Outsiders entity that was called Azathoth; I'm not minded to take the whole "the Outsiders were driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history" bit in GP as plausible because we have a sixty-five-million-year-old tyrannosaur running around the place in DB as living(ish) evidence for the age of the DV being much larger than a human-centric scale. (And possibly also because I have a strong personal preference for multipolar atoreis, including multipolar reads on the DV, than Manichean ones.)

I'm not sure what the bolded part means. Could you elaborate?

And why are Outsiders being driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history and an evolutionary timescale mutually exclusive?  ???
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2013, 04:07:05 PM »
I'm not sure what the bolded part means. Could you elaborate?

I'm saying that if all the Outsiders are a hive mind of some sort, I'm not seeing much difference between calling that hive mind Tehom and calling it Azathoth (or indeed calling it George.)

Quote
And why are Outsiders being driven beyond the Outer Gates by powers back in ancient history and an evolutionary timescale mutually exclusive?  ???

Because a lot of what we see of the Outsiders - mordite and mistfiends and so on - seems to me to indicate that the environment they are adapted for is immensely hostile to Earthly and NN life alike (we've seen mordite be equally deadly to humans and Red Court vampires.)  I'm not finding it particularly plausible that the Earth could have been dominated by Outsiders/Old Ones on a scale of tens of thousands of years ago, when we know the DV had dinosaurs, because it feels to me like humans living in an Outsider environment would be like fish trying to live in a fire.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline magnusth

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2013, 05:40:00 AM »
I'm saying that if all the Outsiders are a hive mind of some sort, I'm not seeing much difference between calling that hive mind Tehom and calling it Azathoth (or indeed calling it George.)

Because a lot of what we see of the Outsiders - mordite and mistfiends and so on - seems to me to indicate that the environment they are adapted for is immensely hostile to Earthly and NN life alike (we've seen mordite be equally deadly to humans and Red Court vampires.)  I'm not finding it particularly plausible that the Earth could have been dominated by Outsiders/Old Ones on a scale of tens of thousands of years ago, when we know the DV had dinosaurs, because it feels to me like humans living in an Outsider environment would be like fish trying to live in a fire.
Well, one possibility which springs to mind is that it's possible that being immensely hostile to earth and reality is an adopted survival trait since ariving "outside" - that originaly, they weren't so hostile, in the cosmic sense, but just bad guys, which is why they got pushed out of the world.

Offline 123456789blaaa

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2013, 10:11:44 AM »
I'm saying that if all the Outsiders are a hive mind of some sort, I'm not seeing much difference between calling that hive mind Tehom and calling it Azathoth (or indeed calling it George.)

I'm not sure what being a hive mind has to do with it.  ???

Tehom isn't just any random name. it is an established being in RL mythology that has a LOT of ties and connections to the Outsiders (I think so anyways). Why would Jim use the figure of Mab (who has prior roles in RL myth) instead of just making up a Winter Queen?

 Tehom is called that because...that's its name. I mean the Vord are a hivemind, why call the Vord the Vord instead of calling them Azathoth?

Because a lot of what we see of the Outsiders - mordite and mistfiends and so on - seems to me to indicate that the environment they are adapted for is immensely hostile to Earthly and NN life alike (we've seen mordite be equally deadly to humans and Red Court vampires.)  I'm not finding it particularly plausible that the Earth could have been dominated by Outsiders/Old Ones on a scale of tens of thousands of years ago, when we know the DV had dinosaurs, because it feels to me like humans living in an Outsider environment would be like fish trying to live in a fire.

Well if you go by my theory than the Outsiders were probably around even before the Big Bang (assuming the Big Bang=Let There be Light. Which I think is pretty plausible considering Jims way of intertwining mythic and RL history. Of course the truth is probably more complex with other religions and stuff but you get the idea). They were then banished far before even the formation of the earth and the stars (I'm assuming they get there info through spies in our world or Outsiders summoned and then banished back to the Outside). That environment seems suited to the Outsiders IMO.
Please, call me Count :).

Thanks go to Shecky for the nickname and Serack for the avatar ^,..,^

Offline Zohak

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Re: Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2013, 12:37:31 PM »
This will help you with Lovecraft info.

H.P. Lovecraft’s
“The Call of Cthulhu”

http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/cc.aspx

 These Great Old Ones, Castro continued, were not composed altogether of flesh and blood. They had shape—for did not this star-fashioned image prove it?—but that shape was not made of matter. When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live. But although They no longer lived, They would never really die. They all lay in stone houses in Their great city of R’lyeh, preserved by the spells of mighty Cthulhu for a glorious resurrection when the stars and the earth might once more be ready for Them. But at that time some force from outside must serve to liberate Their bodies. The spells that preserved Them intact likewise prevented Them from making an initial move, and They could only lie awake in the dark and think whilst uncounted millions of years rolled by. They knew all that was occurring in the universe, but Their mode of speech was transmitted thought. Even now They talked in Their tombs. When, after infinities of chaos, the first men came, the Great Old Ones spoke to the sensitive among them by moulding their dreams; for only thus could Their language reach the fleshly minds of mammals.
      Then, whispered Castro, those first men formed the cult around small idols which the Great Ones shewed them; idols brought in dim aeras from dark stars. That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return.
      In the elder time chosen men had talked with the entombed Old Ones in dreams, but then something had happened. The great stone city R’lyeh, with its monoliths and sepulchres, had sunk beneath the waves; and the deep waters, full of the one primal mystery through which not even thought can pass, had cut off the spectral intercourse. But memory never died, and high-priests said that the city would rise again when the stars were right. Then came out of the earth the black spirits of earth, mouldy and shadowy, and full of dim rumours picked up in caverns beneath forgotten sea-bottoms. But of them old Castro dared not speak much. He cut himself off hurriedly, and no amount of persuasion or subtlety could elicit more in this direction. The size of the Old Ones, too, he curiously declined to mention. Of the cult, he said that he thought the centre lay amid the pathless deserts of Arabia, where Irem, the City of Pillars, dreams hidden and untouched. It was not allied to the European witch-cult, and was virtually unknown beyond its members. No book had ever really hinted of it, though the deathless Chinamen said that there were double meanings in the Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred which the initiated might read as they chose, especially the much-discussed couplet:
 
“That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.”



Lovecraft timeline
http://www.netherreal.de/library/timeline/

Lovecraft Family tree

http://i.imgur.com/bmwHo.jpg

A Lovecraftian Bestiary
http://www.hplovecraft.com/creation/bestiary.aspx


Cthulhu was born of this universe and was mid level cousin(Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly)

http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/dh.aspx

   “Nor is it to be thought,” ran the text as Armitage mentally translated it, “that man is either the oldest or the last of earth’s masters, or that the common bulk of life and substance walks alone. The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen. Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread. By Their smell can men sometimes know Them near, but of Their semblance can no man know, saving only in the features of those They have begotten on mankind; and of those are there many sorts, differing in likeness from man’s truest eidolon to that shape without sight or substance which is Them. They walk unseen and foul in lonely places where the Words have been spoken and the Rites howled through at their Seasons. The wind gibbers with Their voices, and the earth mutters with Their consciousness. They bend the forest and crush the city, yet may not forest or city behold the hand that smites. Kadath in the cold waste hath known Them, and what man knows Kadath? The ice desert of the South and the sunken isles of Ocean hold stones whereon Their seal is engraven, but who hath seen the deep frozen city or the sealed tower long garlanded with seaweed and barnacles? Great Cthulhu is Their cousin, yet can he spy Them only dimly. Iä! Shub-Niggurath! As a foulness shall ye know Them. Their hand is at your throats, yet ye see Them not; and Their habitation is even one with your guarded threshold. Yog-Sothoth is the key to the gate, whereby the spheres meet. Man rules now where They ruled once; They shall soon rule where man rules now. After summer is winter, and after winter summer. They wait patient and potent, for here shall They reign again.”