Tehom/The primordial darkness before the light=Outsiders

[123456789blaaa]

(I'm in a bit of a hurry right now so my thoughts will be a bit scrambled. I'll probably clean them up later)

Tehom is an ancient force of chaos and darkness in RL mythology that has connections to Abrahamic mythology. Some sources (thanks to Ms.Duck):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehom

http://anystrom.blogspot.com/2008/08/tehom-and-tiamat-concept-of-chaols-in.html

http://www.jstor.org/stable/3141790

http://archive.org/stream/babylonianinflu00palmgoog#page/n8/mode/2up

It was the primordial darkness before God said "let their be light". It resented the light so the "spirit of God" quelled the darkness and in the DV cast it out. My theory is that Tehom is actually the Outsiders. All of them.

Tehom being the Outsiders also explains how the Outsiders can be a hivemind and also explains HWWB's statement in Ghost Story:

"This isn't your world," I whispered.

"Not now," He Who Walks Behind murmured, its smile widening. "But it will be ours again in just a little time."

The Outsiders being associated with "voids" and "coldness" also meshes nicely with the primioridal darkness being them.

This theory also meshes nicely with mithrandirthewhite's theory that the Firmament = Outer Gates ( http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,36172.msg1721369.html#msg1721369). In this theory the "flood" is actually the Outsiders/Tehom. The links I posted also say that Tehom  fundamentally means “flood.”

It also explains why the Outsiders would want "Empty Night". They resent the creation of "light' (this may mean actuall light and/or mortals. I suspect the sky being starless at the Outer Gates means it is both symbolic and literal). The "stars" could also represent being with souls/Free Will. Their are a ton of us surrounded by soulless beings and objects just like their are a ton of stars surrounded by darkness.

Tehom also has connection to being a dragon goddess in RL myth.I don't think that Jim will use this interpretation in the DV because Dragons aren't really "alien" enough to be Outsiders. Plus we've already seen Dragons before.

Tehom also has connections to "the Deeps". This is a thing that shows up both in RL myth and the DV:

It is first mentioned in Genesis 1:2:

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (King James version)

The Deeps are the primordial waters of chaos from which creation came from. The "darkness" is Tehom and the "Spirit of God" is well...God.

We have a version of this quote by Thomas in the books (which isn't in any of the popular translation of the bible either):

"Love is patient. Love is kind. Love always forgives, trusts, supports, and endures. Love never fails. When every star in the heavens grows cold, and when silence lies once more on the face of the deep, three things will endure: faith, hope, and love."

"And the greatest of these is love," I finished. "That's from the Bible."

"First Corinthians, chapter thirteen," Thomas confirmed.

Tehom can be literally translated as the Deep.

Thoughts?

[Tami Seven]

Need more time to consider it, but I did find it interesting and well written.

[wizard nelson]

Well I'm not sure I can agree with it being ALL outsiders certainly it could be one. One of if not the greatest, a being so immense it blankets everything and 'destroys reality'(technically it probably bends it to how it perceives reality should be) like Azazoth... Azugoth? Mmm Az something, damn Lovecraftian grammar.

[TheCuriousFan]

Well I'm not sure I can agree with it being ALL outsiders certainly it could be one. One of if not the greatest, a being so immense it blankets everything and 'destroys reality'(technically it probably bends it to how it perceives reality should be) like Azazoth... Azugoth? Mmm Az something, damn Lovecraftian grammar.

Azathoth.

And that bit of you wondering how to spell Azathoth probably took more time to write up on the PS3 than searching for the answer on google would.

[wizard nelson]

Azathoth.

And that bit of you wondering how to spell Azathoth probably took more time to write up on the PS3 than searching for the answer on google would.

One should not google the answer to everything. Thats not real knowledge unless you retain it.

[TheCuriousFan]

One should not google the answer to everything. Thats not real knowledge unless you retain it.

You shouldn't complain about not knowing things when they're unwilling to look it up either.

[wizard nelson]

You shouldn't complain about not knowing things when they're unwilling to look it up either.

Umph, I wasn't complaining about not knowing, I was complaining about the great list of nonsensical names that bounces around my head when I try to think of what I googled on them

[TheCuriousFan]

Umph, I wasn't complaining about not knowing, I was complaining about the great list of nonsensical names that bounces around my head when I try to think of what I googled on them

Sure sounded (technically read, but you know what I mean) like you were complaining about not knowing. But that's enough of this conversation.

[123456789blaaa]

Any more thoughts anyone?

[Griffyn612]

Griff says:

1) The Elder/Great/Old Ones of the Dresdenverse, in parallel with the Lovecraftian creatures, are trans-dimensional non-atmospheric space aliens. 
2) The Outsiders, the lessers of the Elder/Great/Old Ones, are smaller-scale than the others, but of similar natures and evolution.  But they're still space aliens.

I've got this whole "tentacles are cosmic gravity propellers" idea in my head.  It's very believable... from a certain point of view.

Luke:  "A certain point of vew?"

You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

[skaerber]

Well if we think of the generic outsider (is there a generic outsider?) as say, one of Cthulhu's starspawn (if Cthulhu is supposed to be Nemesis tables will be flipped) it would make sense that they at least have the ability to work perfectly with each other.

[123456789blaaa]

Griff says:

1) The Elder/Great/Old Ones of the Dresdenverse, in parallel with the Lovecraftian creatures, are trans-dimensional non-atmospheric space aliens. 
2) The Outsiders, the lessers of the Elder/Great/Old Ones, are smaller-scale than the others, but of similar natures and evolution.  But they're still space aliens.

I've got this whole "tentacles are cosmic gravity propellers" idea in my head.  It's very believable... from a certain point of view.You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Technically, Tehom is a space alien  .

Well if we think of the generic outsider (is there a generic outsider?) as say, one of Cthulhu's starspawn (if Cthulhu is supposed to be Nemesis tables will be flipped) it would make sense that they at least have the ability to work perfectly with each other.

Why? Do they have that ability in one of Lovecrafts stories?

[skaerber]

Why? Do they have that ability in one of Lovecrafts stories?

It was mentioned in "At the Mountains of Madness", I unfortunately have not read that one (I only have the "Call of Cthulhu" compilation sadly enough), if anyone else can answer feel free.

[Ms Duck]

It was mentioned in "At the Mountains of Madness", I unfortunately have not read that one (I only have the "Call of Cthulhu" compilation sadly enough), if anyone else can answer feel free.

the elder things, I believe, have wing like structures they use to fly through space by warping gravity, yes

note they are not outsiders, IMO. they are alien life forms from ancient times but not evil; they are scientists.



while not human and not friends of humans, I think in the lovecraft verse they have the best chance of actually stopping the greater evils.

after they finish dissecting us for their experiments, of course

[Zohak]

Here is hp lovecrafts works and stories with the Elder things, Yith, Flying Polyps,ect
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/


Elder Things
http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/search/label/Elder%20Thing
H.P. Lovecraft’s
At the Mountains of Madness
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/mm.aspx

Flying polyops and Yithians in TSOoT
http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/search/label/Flying%20Polyp

http://yog-blogsoth.blogspot.com/search/label/Yithian

H.P. Lovecraft’s
“The Shadow Out of Time”
http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/sot.aspx