Scion Question

[polkaneverdies]

The old Woj about Kincaid made it clear that scions do have a Choice.

The new Woj (from the KC q and a iirc) would at least seem to raise the distinct possibility of fae characters being playable and still not venturing outside of cannon (if that concerns your group).

[Troy]

The old Woj about Kincaid made it clear that scions do have a Choice.

The new Woj (from the KC q and a iirc) would at least seem to raise the distinct possibility of fae characters being playable and still not venturing outside of cannon (if that concerns your group).

I think the question that concerns our group is: Can a player be forced to "Choose?" Can a player be forced to make their character non-playable? An NPC? Even if it is part of a story, like with Changelings...

The whole vibe from DF RPG and FATE system in general tells me... Probably not. If a player doesn't want their character to become an NPC, then they can make all the right choices to prevent that from happening by the rules as written.

Scions on the other hand I read as 'half breeds' - as opposed to a changeling that makes a choice to be Fae or human, Scions are human that have inherited power from their non-human parents and therefore are the exception - they mostly do have free will, although they might feel the pull of their parents. The downside of this is they never had the choice to go to one side or the other - they're stuck in the middle with no way out. Thus why Scions are the ideal, if a bit more boring, choice for a PC. They're also a lot more rare than a changeling, and I'd personally say a magnitude weaker than their parentage by default, but that's just me.

Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?

[Quantus]

I think the question that concerns our group is: Can a player be forced to "Choose?" Can a player be forced to make their character non-playable? An NPC? Even if it is part of a story, like with Changelings...

The whole vibe from DF RPG and FATE system in general tells me... Probably not. If a player doesn't want their character to become an NPC, then they can make all the right choices to prevent that from happening by the rules as written.

Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?

I didnt say that 

[GryMor]

The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?

A taken out result could be having the Choice forced upon you. IIRC, it also gets effectively forced if, with a template that can't get rid of powers, you go off the deep end with non temporary powers.

This ignores the hybrid cases (Mom's a Wizard, Dad's a Fey, I'm a practitioner with a few Changeling assists) where making the 'Mortal' side of the Choice may actually leave you with 'powers' (or let you redevelop them).

[cold_breaker]

Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?

Changelings are technically scions, but fae scions are not necessarily changelings, at least how I understand it. Please let me know if I've missed that part in the books. Basically what this means is not all of them even get a choice: some just plain don't get to choose one or the other, they're permanently stuck in between. That's why I usually like to differentiate between scions and changelings. I'd also say that the concept of the choice is unique to Fae, since the idea of mantles of power is there. For other races, it might not be possible to become a full blooded creature, or it might require some more difficult or simple right of passage - such as a ritual, or simply hitting a certain age, etc.

But as for being forced to make a decision? I'd say yes, but it's quite difficult to force such a decision and might require a strong compel on your high concept. As a GM, I'd never make such a compel if the player couldn't buy it off, and would use it to basically exhaust that players fate points for a fight. I'd also have a good and very personal reason for the compel - your sisters in danger, you could save her if you had more power! etc. etc.

[cold_breaker]

Changelings are Scions. So, that's what brought the question up. Changelings have an explicit Choice to make when playing the game. Remain mortal and have some nifty powers or... become Fae and get some more nifty powers. The rules say that the former is a PC and the latter is an NPC. We're wondering if other Scions have drawback and, even in the case of Changelings, can that Choice be forced upon you?

Another important point: you have the changeling choice wrong. The choice is to become fae and have power and no free will, or become Human and have free will and no power. Not choosing is how they keep a little of both.

[polkaneverdies]

Woj from 2011 bitten by books q and a

Does Kincaid have the ability to “choose” like Faerie changelings (i.e Meryl/Fix/Lily)?”
All scions do, though if they never twig to the fact that they ARE a scion, it’s their actions that make the Choice for them. Kincaid made his Choice a long, long time ago.

[ReaderAt2046]

Just want to note that by RAW, the GM can force a human into NPCdom by hitting him with Lawbreaker stunts, so that might be precedent for decreeing (under the right circumstances) that a changeling character will burn his refresh and become an NPC.

[Wordmaker]

A GM could do that, but it's a bit of a jerk move, to force a player to give up their character if they don't want to. Apart from killing with magic (which isn't going to happen unless the player chooses to kill in a conflict, or negotiated as part of a compel), it's pretty hard to break the Laws without meaning to.

[ReaderAt2046]

Actually, killing with magic is exactly what I was thinking of. This stems from the fact that, to me, the First Law doesn't seem to make any sense RAW, because it effectively means that doing the right thing for the right reason can turn you evil. I understand the First Law to be a specific prohibition against magical murder, which is distinct from magical killing. The former is definitely always wrong, the later may be right or wrong depending on circumstances.

[polkaneverdies]

The point is that according to the rules of magic it is never the right thing to kill a mortal with magic.

It is a perversion of the energies of creation to use it to snuff out one of the "free agents" of creation. (Mortals being the group than can use "free will" to choose outside of their blueprints).

[Tedronai]

I understand the First Law to be a specific prohibition against magical murder, which is distinct from magical killing.

Your understanding is mistaken.

[ReaderAt2046]

Well, I can't understand it any other way, it just doesn't make any sense.

[Tedronai]

Killing with magic is bad for your soul, whether or not its in self-defense, defense of innocents, or execution.

If you absolutely must kill, and absolutely must use magic, then use the magic to incapacitate them long enough for you to stomp their face into the mud.
That won't corrupt your soul quite so dramatically.

[Wordmaker]

Essentially yes. It's made abundantly clear in the novels and DFRPG that specifically taking a life through the use of mortal magic is a violation of the natural order of the universe, on par with altering a person's mind, raising the dead, or altering the past.

This isn't a moral judgement in any way, and Anastacia Lucco points this out bluntly to Harry. The Wardens do not uphold morality, they uphold the Laws of Magic.

And yes, you're right, sometimes it means a character can be punished for doing what they believe to be the right thing. Like Harry killing DuMorne. That was in self-defence, and still was a violation of the Laws of Magic, setting up Harry's initial conflict with the Council. This is also why, as stated in the novels, the Wardens carry swords, so they can finish off an opponent, or carry out an execution, without using magic.