Author Topic: Social Combat During Physical Combat  (Read 9767 times)

Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2013, 03:12:01 PM »
I honestly wouldn't call for a full conflict unless there were major stakes at play, regardless of the format.

Friendly wrestling match? Opposed Might check. Same with arm-wrestling. Unless there were real story goals on the line, I'd keep things down to a simple opposed skill check.

I can't think of a situation where the stakes would warrant Mental conflict for a chess game.

There isn't even a skill for Mental Attacks.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2013, 03:16:35 PM »
Saying it's not a mental conflict unless you stand a serious chance of scrambling your brian is like saying it's not a physical contest unless there's a good chance of being impaled on a spike - most people would stop short of any major consequence, but that doesn't mean it's not still a conflict.
Well, no. You're trying to compare something vague (scrambling your brain can mean anything) with something very specific. A better comparison would be it's not a physical contest unless there's a reasonable chance of being injured. Mental conflict is about psychological trauma, not headaches or game of wits.

If it's a mental conflict, that means that someone could be reasonably expected to use up all their consequences before being taken out or conceding. That means that a mental conflict is something that one or both parties may need professional psychological help to recover from.

And the only way that's going to happen is if there is something seriously on the line between the two characters, that one has gotten under the other's skin to the point that he stands a chance of damaging his or her psyche.
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Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2013, 03:21:59 PM »
I suppose you could argue that torture might result in the amount of psychological trauma that might be expected from mental conflict, but that's probably better reflected through taking a Severe Consequence in a social conflict.

Offline cold_breaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2013, 03:59:00 PM »
That's a fair interpretation of the rules (I'd likely do the same), but not reading them as designed. I'm talking about what these situations are technically. Technically, a footrace is a physical conflict, a debate is a social conflict and a game of wits in any form is a mental conflict. For practicality sakes we may not run it that way, but that's what they are.

As a note: you can also take a broader definition to what consequences could be. A headache? Mentally exhausted? Can't concentrate? I'm sure if you tried you could come up with even extreme mental consequences that still don't amount to a form of insanity.


Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2013, 04:03:52 PM »
Okay, true, but within the rules, how would you initiate a Mental Conflict, except with magic? There is no skill with the trapping "Mental Attack."

Offline Taran

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2013, 05:50:58 PM »
I think it's specifically stated that Intimidation can be used to inflict mental stress.  Usually through torture/interrogation.

Must...find...a page number...

Offline cold_breaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2013, 06:29:00 PM »
Well, in this case I'd probably say lore or academics would work as attack stats easily.

OK, a bit more realistic reason these rules might be used: Our theoretical players enter a warehouse where Bob the gun toting nut waits to shoot them. There's a standoff and the players realize very early that Bob is quite unhinged but in a straight out shootout there's no way that everyone leaves without some major damage. So they try something a little different...

Since Bob is obsessed with guns, and not particularly mentally stable, they try using their knowledge of weapons to see if they can't push him over the edge. They start up a conversation and try to convince him that his memory is wrong: he's got the safety on his gun on... did he use the right ammo? Did he assemble the gun right the last time he cleaned it? You know, maybe you should put that gun down, it'll explode and kill you if you screwed up.

Mechanically, I'd handle this as a series of social manoeuvres followed by one major mental attack. I'd probably let Bob defend with either academics or guns, and he'd probably start attacking on his turn anyways. In this case, the mental attack is delivered socially, but none the less it's an attempt to break him mentally, so I'd make the attack mental.

As a note: this is entirely situational. It's probably only worth it against someone who's mentally unstable (read: already has a few mental consequences in the first place, possibly from a different encounter?) Still, I'd love if my players came up with this kind of strategy in a campaign and figured out a way to exploit an enemies weakness rather than simply fighting him on his terms. As another note: I houserule that you have a different set of consequences for social, physical and mental tracks, so this might have to be handled slightly differently if you play by the normal rules (aspects instead of consequences on a person with this kind of weakness?)

Offline Taran

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2013, 06:39:03 PM »
Or they invoke his "wacky Gun nut" aspect and he accepts the compel and goes crazy ;)

I think there's a bit of overlap with social and mental, but mental really is about psyche.

Offline Taran

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2013, 06:47:50 PM »
YS pg. 217 "MENTAL CONFLICTS"

I was going to take out some snippets, but really, everything there explains it.

Also:

Intimidation YS:132  The last paragraph is the most telling (bolded mine)

Provocation

When you don’t control the situation well
enough to make your target afraid, you can still
use Intimidation—just not for the usual “be
scary” purpose. Instead, psychological or social
attacks
may be made to provoke the target—
usually by enraging them or otherwise getting
them to lose their cool.

and

Threats

Ultimately, this is about power—defined here
as your demonstrable ability to control the situation,
rather than the victim’s control over it.
Without this context, the victim may be at an
advantage (+2) when defending, or may simply
be untouchable by this method of psychological
attack.

Under certain conditions, Intimidation is one
of the few skills able to deal direct mental stress

(see “Mental Conflicts,” page 217) to a target as an
attack, and you can use it both in physical and
social conflict situations
.

Offline cold_breaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2013, 06:56:31 PM »
Or they invoke his "wacky Gun nut" aspect and he accepts the compel and goes crazy ;)

I think there's a bit of overlap with social and mental, but mental really is about psyche.

Touche, but I think that'd be a little too easy. lol. I don't disagree about the psyche, I'm just saying that it doesn't require magic powers to effect someone's psyche. I think an example of this might be the haunted house one shot they released - scary stuff tended to be mental attacks, even though the ghosts weren't using their powers to actually attack yet. In my mind brain twisters and riddles could be forms of weak mental attacks. Out riddling a sphinx might be another example of a mental combat without any specific mental attacks.

Offline Taran

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2013, 07:09:09 PM »
Yes I agree...so here's that specific excerpt from YS which supports what you are saying:

Being able to attack the mental stress track
is no small feat. The kind of abuse necessary to
inflict this kind of damage on another person
usually takes a great deal of time and energy, the
result of established relationships going horribly
awry. Shortcuts exist—certain triggers in the
character’s history might allow access to deeper
recesses of the mind


...stuff about magic...

Between mortals, some sort of prior connection
or justification must exist to inflict mental
stress and consequences
. An aspect that defines
a relationship rife with abandonment, emotional
degradation, violence, rape, or other potential
triggers would qualify for this, as it’s assumed
that the relationship has been going on long
enough to justify being vulnerable to this kind
of severe effect. When this is the case, many
actions that qualify as social attacks can affect
the mental stress track.


So with that said, if you have proper knowledge of a persons past - mechanically, this might be invoking an aspect related to this - your social attacks can affect the mental stress track.

Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2013, 10:39:59 PM »
Hadn't realised that about Intimidation.

I'd count the case of the crazy nutjob there as a social conflict, completely. I figure social stress is mundane psychological trauma and emotion. Mental stress is when your mind is being broken down and literally scarred. You don't get that from many things.

Offline Taran

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Re: Social Combat During Physical Combat
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2013, 11:05:53 PM »
In my mind brain twisters and riddles could be forms of weak mental attacks. Out riddling a sphinx might be another example of a mental combat without any specific mental attacks.

Personally, I don't see this as mental attacks.  I see a conflict against a Sphinx as a Cat and Mouse conflict where you use Lore and Scholarship as your rolls.

If, at the end of x number of rolls, you have more shifts, then you've successfully answered all the questions, if the Sphinx wins...well, it means you answered incorrectly and have now been eaten by a sphinx  :P