A few seconds ahead - How strong is it?

[Sanctaphrax]

Sanctaphrax: Okay, I think I see better where you're coming from now, and put in those terms, AFSA might not be the best designed power. As I said before, it just plain doesn't make sense to me for it to be a bonus in Social situations too, so would dropping those make it palatable for the cost it has now?

Oh, hey. We're getting somewhere. Awesome.

It would be a lot fairer if it didn't affect social rolls too. I still wouldn't like it, though, because it's boring and it renders interesting stunts obsolete.

I don't really see the point of allowing it...it's not like it's an interesting Power.

Defensive items have one other advantage over a roll: Consistency. A Block:5 defensive item doesn't have a risk of rolling badly. And going by what I've read elsewhere, I think you can boost them with aspect invokes (I seem to remember one of the designers saying you could invoke on a +2 for anything in the game that has a number).

True, the consistency is nice.

I vaguely recall Fred Hicks saying something like that. But I don't think that, by a strict reading of the RAW, you can boost items with FP.

And I'm kind of inclined to be anal about the RAW here because I hate making Crafting stronger.

Just as an aside, the villain in my current scenario has a defensive item that might well be used socially and physically--he's a chronomancer, so he has a Block:6 belt that works by rewinding time a handful of seconds to before he was hit so he can get out of the way properly this time. It's a neat effect where it just looks like he dodged--except to the PCs, who have talismans to protect their minds against time travel effects, so they see him getting hit -and- rewinding to dodge at the same time. It could work socially in the sense of either giving him more time to think of a good comeback, or trying again if he tries a comeback that falls flat.

That's pretty cool.

But I don't think rewinding time would make a thug less scary or a bribe less appealing.

Quick point of fact: The Pyromancer can't benefit from AFSA because it'd put him over the refresh limit.

He could and should trade something away.

Now, Eliza is kind of what I was talking about before. If the player wanted to be "as powerful as possible," then they'd have at least given her some kind of physical skill--as it is, while she could avoid a lot of attacks with AFSA, she can't do anything to fight back, and she's got no Physical stress track to speak of, so if anything with a weapon rating hits her, she's not going to last long. She kind of strikes me as someone designed deliberately to not be a combatant, in which case AFSA doesn't do much for her except prolong the inevitable.

Indeed. As I said, "Here's a non-combatant".

But with AFSA, she's not really a non-combatant anymore. All of a sudden, she's useful in a battle with vampires. 1 Refresh on that Power is all it takes.

(Plus, it's actually a semi-significant social bonus. Deceit isn't a universal social defence.)

I'd argue as a "very old wizard" the Pyromancer could take it without any tweak--as is pointed out in the canon, wizards develop a sort of prescience on their own anyway, which AFSA could certainly be used to represent. And come to think of it, so could Eliza--Janus is a god of time, after all.

You could fit AFSA into their Templates, sure. But the concept of these individual characters included nothing whatsoever about seeing the future.

[GryMor]

Mikhail
Would have to sacrifice substantial offensive effectiveness or defensive effectiveness to afford AFSA. Already has a better than cap physical defense. Already has a cap-2 universal physical defense. Already has semi applicable social defenses at cap -1 and cap -4.

Steve
Has a cap breaking defense in stealth, could get more synergy and physical defense from restricted Inhuman Speed (effectively 'Human Form: only in shadows')

Eliza
Already has reasonable social defenses, should be relying on allies for physical defenses. Would get more versatility from a refresh spent on a guardian retainer than on AFSA. Could go either way based on specified concept, or could keep the refresh open to allow for occasionally compelling a defender in time of need.

[Sanctaphrax]

Dropping the belt and a point of offensive fire power would mean little to Mikhail. And shield evocations are pretty bad, as you know. AFSA is clearly superior, especially since it offers the option of replacing Athletics with something else.

Stealth is not a physical defence skill. Restricted Inhuman Speed would be situational, obviously, and in the best case it'd still provide a lower defence roll than AFSA.

Spending a Refresh on a guardian retainer isn't actually possible by any canon mechanism. And relying on allies for physical defences makes you a liability in a fight. 1 Refresh transforms Eliza from a liability into a useful combatant. You'd be stupid not to take that.

[Lavecki121]

Spending a Refresh on a guardian retainer isn't actually possible by any canon mechanism. And relying on allies for physical defences makes you a liability in a fight. 1 Refresh transforms Eliza from a liability into a useful combatant. You'd be stupid not to take that.

Unless you didnt want that kind of character. The character wasnt built for combat, why would you now build her for combat because the power exists? I understand the want for the higher defense simply because it exists, but if I make a character who isnt made for physical combat, I dont expect them to go into physical combat that often. When it does arise the character might run or hide or try a different tactic. I see no reason for the because it makes you better you should argument.

That said I looked over the book again. I dont feel that the power should grant social, there is no reason for it and if you get rid of that part it makes up for the power. The current power I would compare it to as an equal type of power is Cloak of Shadows. I choose this 1 refresh power because I think it is the most comparable.

Cloak of Shadows gives you +2 to Stealth in darkness or shadow and no perception penalty in darkness.

I think this is equivalent to two stunts worth and I believe that a move of trapping with no restriction is arguably worth two refresh.

I dont know maybe I am wrong.

[Sanctaphrax]

Unless you didnt want that kind of character. The character wasnt built for combat, why would you now build her for combat because the power exists? I understand the want for the higher defense simply because it exists, but if I make a character who isnt made for physical combat, I dont expect them to go into physical combat that often. When it does arise the character might run or hide or try a different tactic. I see no reason for the because it makes you better you should argument.

1 Refresh to make a character competent in a major area of the game is very powerful. Too powerful.

You don't have to do it, but if you choose not to then you're handicapping yourself.

That said I looked over the book again. I dont feel that the power should grant social, there is no reason for it and if you get rid of that part it makes up for the power. The current power I would compare it to as an equal type of power is Cloak of Shadows. I choose this 1 refresh power because I think it is the most comparable.

Cloak of Shadows gives you +2 to Stealth in darkness or shadow and no perception penalty in darkness.

I think this is equivalent to two stunts worth and I believe that a move of trapping with no restriction is arguably worth two refresh.

I dont know maybe I am wrong.

Just because one -1 Power is basically equivalent to 2 Stunts doesn't mean you can pick any two stunts you want and merge them into a -1 Power.

I mean, Inhuman Strength is equivalent to more than 7 Stunts. But you can't just spend 2 Refresh for any 7 Stunts you want.

(It's hard to say exactly how many Stunts it would take to build Inhuman Strength, but my guess is 13.)

That being said, if you do intend to use AFSA then dropping the social bonus is a good idea.

[Tedronai]

That being said, if you do intend to use AFSA then dropping the social bonus is a good idea.

Particularly since the social bonus is arguably worth more than 2 stunts unto itself (social attacks, and thus social defenses, typically being the most readily varied, and difficult to encapsulate within a single trapping, it is likely that the blanket language of the power-as-is would require the wholesale moving of multiple trappings)

[fantazero]

Actually I do agree that moving the trapping from one skill to another does not benefit from some other ability that keys off the original skill. To me, the game is a competition or a tournament. At least the character generation portion is. The competition is all the other concepts in my head. I feel cheated if if I didn't build someone who's got the best possible efficiency. It's a roleplaying game, so therefore I game, most "roleplayers" are so enamoured of the "roleplaying" that they lose sight that it is first and foremost a game and games have winners. The way I see it, the best stories are built around maximally efficient top tier characters. And during character generation, spending all skill points and refresh and shaping Aspects in the Top Tier Way should be, at the minimum, the primary concern. I find optimised builds easily shape up into interesting concepts.

From the Show Community
I WON D&D and it was Advanced


Sorry I'll skip Min-Maxing if it gets in the way of fun or story. The Fate system is supposed to be getting away from the crunchy munchkin days of D&D, Shadowrun Ect.

Fate is supposed to be about your character and his/her aspects.

On the Left is Crunch Games. On the Right is Story Games



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[Mr. Death]

I don't really see the point of allowing it...it's not like it's an interesting Power.

I allowed it, mostly, because the player's character concept was of a seer, and I wanted a mechanical way to represent it in addition to just giving her Ritual (Divination).

That's pretty cool.

But I don't think rewinding time would make a thug less scary or a bribe less appealing.

Yeah, it wouldn't work for all social defenses, but it might work in the sense of letting you see someone's reactions to, for example, you calling his bluff safely.

He could and should trade something away.

Eh, it's debatable.

Indeed. As I said, "Here's a non-combatant".

But with AFSA, she's not really a non-combatant anymore. All of a sudden, she's useful in a battle with vampires. 1 Refresh on that Power is all it takes.

1 Refresh transforms Eliza from a liability into a useful combatant. You'd be stupid not to take that.

She's less of a liability, but not really "useful." Even with AFSA, she's completely lacking in physical skills, so while it means she is less likely to die instantly, she's still woefully ineffective at actually doing anything to the vampire. She'd need two invokes to stand a reasonable chance of beating the vampire's defenses (and just as she lacks physical skill to attack, she lacks physical skill to maneuver and create aspects to tag), and she'd need a heavy weapon to beat its armor and toughness (perhaps a really, really big book?), so AFSA is only really delaying the inevitable.

(Plus, it's actually a semi-significant social bonus. Deceit isn't a universal social defence.)

I don't have the book on me, but doesn't Marked by Power give a flat +1 to social rolls already? If so, her social defense is already on par with the Lore score.

[Lavecki121]

I don't have the book on me, but doesn't Marked by Power give a flat +1 to social rolls already? If so, her social defense is already on par with the Lore score.

When dealing with someone in the magical community

[toturi]

She's less of a liability, but not really "useful." Even with AFSA, she's completely lacking in physical skills, so while it means she is less likely to die instantly, she's still woefully ineffective at actually doing anything to the vampire.

Well to be fair, I think you are looking at the character in a one on one situation. In a situation where there are team mates around, she may actually survive to place an Aspect. Which she may not be able to do if she is taken out before she does anything.

[Lavecki121]

In a situation where there are teammates around it shouldn't really matter, people tend to go after the thing hitting them, not the one on the sideline shouting "here batter batter"

[Sanctaphrax]

I allowed it, mostly, because the player's character concept was of a seer, and I wanted a mechanical way to represent it in addition to just giving her Ritual (Divination).

You may want to check out the Prophecy and Precognition custom Powers.

They're not perfect, but they're less boring than AFSA.

Eh, it's debatable.

Yeah, but one side of the debate is clearly stronger.

She's less of a liability, but not really "useful." Even with AFSA, she's completely lacking in physical skills, so while it means she is less likely to die instantly, she's still woefully ineffective at actually doing anything to the vampire. She'd need two invokes to stand a reasonable chance of beating the vampire's defenses (and just as she lacks physical skill to attack, she lacks physical skill to maneuver and create aspects to tag), and she'd need a heavy weapon to beat its armor and toughness (perhaps a really, really big book?), so AFSA is only really delaying the inevitable.

As toturi says, maneuvers are useful.

And without AFSA, she's likely to be target #1 in a group fight unless there's a glass cannon around. Targeting the fragile folks isn't just a good idea, it's instinctive for predators.

It's not that she's a powerhouse with AFSA. But without it, her value to her team in a fight might well be less than 0.

I don't have the book on me, but doesn't Marked by Power give a flat +1 to social rolls already? If so, her social defense is already on par with the Lore score.

Pretty sure Marked By Power would boost the Lore roll too. It's a social roll, after all.

[Lavecki121]

As toturi says, maneuvers are useful.

And without AFSA, she's likely to be target #1 in a group fight unless there's a glass cannon around. Targeting the fragile folks isn't just a good idea, it's instinctive for predators.

It's not that she's a powerhouse with AFSA. But without it, her value to her team in a fight might well be less than 0.

She is a non combat character, she was built to be ineffective in physical confrontation.

[Mr. Death]

Yeah, but one side of the debate is clearly stronger.

That, too, is debatable.

As toturi says, maneuvers are useful.

Yes--but anything she could use to maneuver in physical confrontation is rolled at 0. Creating an aspect is typically a 3-shift difficulty, yes? That means unless she's invoking or tagging other aspects, she has about a 6% chance of being able to contribute with a maneuver. Less if she's trying to maneuver against something that has a defense roll.

And without AFSA, she's likely to be target #1 in a group fight unless there's a glass cannon around. Targeting the fragile folks isn't just a good idea, it's instinctive for predators.

When hunting for food? Yes. When in a real fight, I'd think they'd want to first take out the enemies most likely to be able to do them harm.

It's not that she's a powerhouse with AFSA. But without it, her value to her team in a fight might well be less than 0.

All it really does is bring her from less than 0 to 0.

[GryMor]

And without AFSA, she's likely to be target #1 in a group fight unless there's a glass cannon around. Targeting the fragile folks isn't just a good idea, it's instinctive for predators.

Pretty sure Marked By Power would boost the Lore roll too. It's a social roll, after all.

Eating an action and not dying is generally useful in a fight, and she has more consequences to spend than the average bystander, while, if careful, looking like a bystander. This still assumes the party doesn't have a 'tank' to draw the enemies attention (Harry manages it with witty banter and insults).

I'm pretty sure Marked By Power would not add to the AFSA social defense as seeing the future, even if using it to evade a social attack, is still seeing the future and not in and of itself, a social roll/action.