Purview of Evocation

[Troy]

Hola!

I'm new to the game and I'm interested in understand more experienced players' take on the various purview of the Elements of Evocation magic. I have read one small article that reminds everyone that, in addition to the obvious literal element, each element covers a sort of symbolic base. Air is tied to thoughts, while Spirit is tied to emotions. Earth is good at strengthening things while Water is good for dissolving things. Fire handles destruction but also purification. All this makes perfect sense to me and I was looking for expansions on these sorts of ideas.

For example: In addition to Air controlling winds and things like that, it is the element of motion and freedom. So any Evocation that might deal with motion and freedom would be an Air Evocation. This might include enhanced speed, flight, acceleration, deceleration, telekinesis-type thing. The book says that Air is suitable for fine manipulations, so it can be used to pick locks. I would say since Air is the element of freedom, an Evocation might not just pick a lock, I might just use it to put the temporary Aspect UNLOCKED on a door, car, or pair of handcuffs. Or use it to escape any confinement that isn't airtight.

Do you think those are appropriate uses of Air Evocations? Might one also use Air Evocations to enhance their senses or memory or perform quick & dirty Psychomancy spells?

What do you think? What do you think about the other Elements?

Thanks so much for your time!

[Haru]

I've had a player with an aeromancer who used his magic to pick locks, so yes, I allow it. Though I made it thaumaturgy, not evocation. Using evocation to open a lock would be, in my understanding, to rip it open, since evocation usually doesn't allow for too much fine manipulation. But unless you are in a conflict, that won't differ all that much.

Keep in mind, that there can be a lot of overlap in the elements. If you want to move something, you could, for example create an explosion next to it and move it that way, that would be a fire evocation. Air evocations would use gales of wind to move things around, and those can be quite delicate, like Harry's "ventas servitas", when he moves his staff, for example. Straight up telekinesis is usually spirit.

It all comes down to "how can you justify using your magic to do what you want to do?"

I could, for example, see someone using air magic to enhance their sense of smell, because they make the wind bring in more molecules for them to smell. Or they make the air enhance the slightest noises, before it gets into their ear. But taste? That would be rather difficult. Sight? Well, you could create a lens of compressed air, or even form a telescope out of a contraption like that. If it fits the character, that is. Not every character is using his magic that mechanically.

I'd have a problem with memory enhancement or psychometry spells with air. But then again, in some elemental systems air is linked to thought, and in that case, it will certainly be possible. But again, a complicated spell like that would rather be thaumaturgy than evocation. I can't think of anything that would justify psychometry with air magic though. Spirit could easily do it. But it is kind of moot, since thaumaturgy isn't limited to the elements in the way that evocation is. Ritual(aeromancy) would be limited to air magic, of course.

But you can stretch some elements quite a bit. Fire is, by raw, linked to purification, but you could also link fire to passion, and then reading something about an object that someone else has been passionate about would be totally doable with fire magic.

It's always about what you do with it, and what you can justify before your group. I would take the part from Your Story as inspiration rather than restriction.

[crusher_bob]

You'll run into a problem: evocation is already a very powerful ability.  Letting it do 'other stuff' will quickly move it out of the top tier of abilities and into the best of all abilities category.

Sample things you generally shouldn't let evocation do without any extra refresh spent:
Duplicate other powers (examples: flight, supernatural sense, etc)
Do something that a skill roll would normally be needed for (examples: picking locks | note that there is already the rules explicit veil ability, which is problematic enough)

If one of the players wants their character to do something frequently, they should pay refresh to put it on their character sheet.  If they just want to do it rarely, charge them fate points for 'temporary access to powers'

[Troy]

You'll run into a problem: evocation is already a very powerful ability.  Letting it do 'other stuff' will quickly move it out of the top tier of abilities and into the best of all abilities category.

Can you elaborate, please?

From what I've been able to find from my research online, most people tend to use Evocation like a magic gun. I'd like it to be something more than that because I'm not interested in blasting people. I'm also not that interested in using each element in exactly the same manner. An example of this is: each example Evocation given in Your Story has been re-written using a different element. I can appreciate the utility of that, but I'm interested in doing more than attacking, blocking, grappling someone.

Like Haru said, the Element of Fire governs passion. In that vein, I think it's feasible to use a Fire Evocation to make someone lose their temper, or the inverse, calm the heck down when they've lost their temper. I'm not suggesting doing anything on a permanent basis, just using the magic to create a moment that can work toward your advantage in certain types of situations. Using a Fire Evocation to make someone angry (or using a Water Evocation to dowse someone's anger to use a different point of view) is within the purview of Evocation, is it not? That's a form of psychomancy.

Thaumaturgy has a variety of uses that can't be outdone or replaced by Evocation. On the other hand, if someone has the Channeling power and they are an aeromancer, as in Haru's contribution, then what need have they to learn the other elements when every element can do pretty much the same thing? I'm not saying that that's a bad thing, it's a perk of the design. It's just, for my purposes, I'm looking for something more. I truly appreciate that flexibility, but I would also like to explore the niche of each Element so that spells a wizard casts aren't so literal. There are concepts behind the elements, personalities, inclinations. This is the message I get from the book. Water magic isn't just about water: it's change and dissolution, it's reflections and depth, it's cool and refreshing, it's dark and drowning. It's formless, it's shapeless. Water can flow or water can crash. (Thanks, Bruce Lee, you're awesome.  )

Say that you are a WIZARD-IN-TRAINING like Molly Carpenter and you have the Evocation Power with Air & Spirit. The conventional wisdom online suggests to me that Molly needn't learn any other Elements because she can already do everything she needs to do with Air & Spirit, it just takes on different forms. But there are themes, too. How else could she have violated the Fourth Law and controlled the minds of her friends with only Air and Spirit Evocations?

Am I completely off-base? There could be something I'm missing since I'm a complete newbie.

[Haru]

Yes, mechanically, the only reason would be to be able to get more power into your spells by taking specializations. But while it is true that you can do a lot with only one element, they are still limited in their own way. Especially if you use them in ways they were "not intended", I would want you to take an aspect that reflects why and how you are able to do so. And it is never going to be as powerful as the original. Starting fire with air might be able by using motion and friction, but with air it would be a full ritual, while with fire it would be a flick of your fingers.

Remember that you get fate points for getting into trouble. Not being able to do something will be a greater source of trouble than being able to do everything. So if you limit yourself, you can really shine at it, instead of being able to do everything a little bit. I feel that this is a way cooler way to play.

If you create your wizard so he can induce passion or anger with fire evocations, I would severely limit his abilities to do fireballs and such. I would usually take mental manipulation under thaumaturgy, since it is very delicate work. The book talks about this somewhere, the aspect that describes the wizard's approach to his magic, such as "not so subtle" for Harry or "subtlety is its own power" for Molly. Those describe the areas of magic the wizard is good at, and those he is not so good at. Molly will faint if she tries to throw a fireball, Harry will get things wrong when he is trying to do a veil. A "puppetmaster" wizard would be great at inducing anger with fire or manipulate memories with air, but he would be hard pressed to ever get out a fireball or move a gale of air.

Also, you as a wizard don't only bring color to the elements, usually the elements bring color to your character as well. Common tropes like the hotheaded pyromancer, the aloof aeromancer, the stoic terramancer, and so forth. Of course it doesn't have to be like this, but it is a common trope for a reason, like to like. Look at the Codex Alera, for example.

[Sanctaphrax]

From what I've been able to find from my research online, most people tend to use Evocation like a magic gun. I'd like it to be something more than that because I'm not interested in blasting people.

Evocation is generally used as a magic gun because it pretty much is a magic gun. If you're not interested in blasting people, it's probably not the right Power for you.

On the other hand, if someone has the Channeling power and they are an aeromancer, as in Haru's contribution, then what need have they to learn the other elements when every element can do pretty much the same thing?

If you invest all of your resources into being good at air evocations, you will be worse at air evocations than the guy who also learned how to do earth and spirit evocations. Channelling is usually just worse than Evocation once you start buying Refinements.

Elements are usually just cosmetic, but that doesn't mean you should only learn one. It means you should learn three, specialize in one, and never use the other two. (That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea.)

Using a Fire Evocation to make someone angry (or using a Water Evocation to dowse someone's anger to use a different point of view) is within the purview of Evocation, is it not? That's a form of psychomancy.

Psychomancy is form of Thaumaturgy.

I personally wouldn't let you do that stuff with Evocation.

Am I completely off-base?

No.

But you're pretty close to the edge of the base, if you know what I mean.

The book leaves the limits of the elements and the location of the dividing line between evocation and thaumaturgy rather vague. So that stuff varies from game to game.

And your particular take goes unusually far towards complex evocation and strictly limited elements.

You could make that work, but...if you really don't want to blast people, you might want to try some more serious houseruling. Because evocation is really good for blasting people, and buying it without wanting to blast people is like buying a car without wanting to drive.

Sure, you could use your car as a storage compartment. But it's not terribly efficient.

[Tedronai]

Psychomancy is form of Thaumaturgy.

Except insofar as it might also be available elsewhere, such as indicated by the oft-cited notation in the Spirit section.
Just in case anyone thought this was a case of the RAW being unambiguous, or the community approaching a consensus.

[blackstaff67]

My sorcerer has Chloromancy had a theme for his Thaumaturgy as a way of playing off his name (Duba='oak' or 'oaken').  Sure, I could have taken Geomancy (which covers more than just plants, it covers the earth) or a specialization in Wards or the like, but Chloromancy is more in line with how he sees himself as well as being more limiting (try using Chloromancy in the desert or in winter--not too much plant life around).  That limits him quite a bit.  Industrial parks also stink

[Troy]

Thank you so much for your contributions. I appreciate the perspective of experience with the system and the narrative from the Dresden Files novels that help to color the game's system. I was reminded that the magic system is designed to represent what we can see or can know from the fiction in the books, and I also read that one of the limitations of doing things like that is that the writers of the game can only see things from Harry Dresden's point of view. That, and Sanctaphrax's post, puts things in an entirely new perspective for me.

One of my first visualizations of the Evocation Power in use was something akin to Avatar: the Last Airbender. I've been reassured that it's not exactly like that, but there are elements (no pun intended) from that sort of thing that can bleed over into DFRPG. An example of that being what Haru mentioned: a flighty aeromancer, a stoic terramancer (which is very close to my own character concept), a hot-headed pyromancer.

So, here's the next evolution of my inquiry...
Is it feasible for a wizard to have a mystical blind spot so that he or she turns out to be something like an elementalist? Thaumaturgy is not bound by the themes or restrictions of the Five Elements used in Evocation, but isn't it possible that a would-be wizard or an auto-didactic sorcerer might believe in those themes and restrictions and carries them over into her Thaumaturgy practices? Would that be your standard Wizard Template with an Aspect to reflect such a mystical blindspot or would that be a Focused Practitioner or something?

What do you guys think?

Also, what do you think Molly Carpenter was doing magically/mechanically speaking when she violated the 4th Law if it wasn't some repeated use of a subtle, but harmful, Evocation?

[crusher_bob]

Can you elaborate, please?

The problem is that evocation is the most powerful (or tied for most powerful with incite emotion) offensive ability plus is the second most powerful defensive ability (is behind enchanted items).  Which means that it's worth 3 points for those abilities alone.  Adding the ability of evocation to do 'other stuff' means that you get both very powerful offensive and defensive abilities, plus whatever other stuff you add to it.

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Now, how to get the effect you want?  Sounds like you might want something like incite emotion or Sanctaphrax's incite effect power, both of which are powers more geared to doing 'other stuff' than evocation is.

Another option is to work out some sort of (refresh costing) expansion of evocation, which allows you to do 'other stuff'

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Here are two of the ideas I've had for allowing evocation to do other stuff:
They are taken from this thread where there's a bit more depth of discussion.
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idea 1:

While evocation is technically capable of many tasks, many of them require considerably more skill, practice, and luck than most wizards put into it.

So what are these 'other' uses of evocation?
Many skill rolls can be outright replaced by evocations, examples include moving (force jumps, 'tactical' hops through the nevernever, etc), very fine manipulation of objects (lockpicking, eavesdropping, fine craftsmanship, etc), illusions of considerable complexity, etc

In general, the power of the evocation will act as a roll of the appropriate skill.

You can gain access to the 'other uses' of evocation in the following ways:
1
Spend a fate point, to get access to the ability for a single use.
2
spend a point of refresh of a permanent expansion of your evocations to cover one trapping of a skill.

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idea 2:

Basic evocation includes one skill trapping replacement for 'free', Harry's is movement, Molly's is veils, other wizards might have other basic abilities.  For example, if you want to have (some) knowledge of the ways, then maybe you'll take the navigation trapping of driving.

This means that the RAW can stand almost exactly as written, with most wizards being assumed to take veils as their default.

This removes spirit as the most equal element, puts slight hedge on free veils, explains why Harry doesn't do them until several books in, and hedges in other skill trapping replacements of evocation.

It's not really perfect, but does seem to solve some slightly irritating issues, (somewhat) hedge in free expansion of wizard power, and is easy.

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Both of those ideas have potential problems, but both do attempt to draw a line around how you get evocation to do 'other stuff' and what 'other stuff' you can and can't do.  Otherwise it's just 'whatever you can talk the GM into' which is a pretty bad idea, especially with evocation being as powerful as it is already.

[crusher_bob]

Also, what do you think Molly Carpenter was doing magically/mechanically speaking when she violated the 4th Law if it wasn't some repeated use of a subtle, but harmful, Evocation?

On the order of power 4-9 thaumaturgy.

Evocation really isn't useful for that sort of subtle work.  A bit like asking how much surgery you can do in 30 seconds with an axe.

That's also one of the notable abilities of sponsored magic, the ability to do some aspects of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods.

[Troy]

On the order of power 4-9 thaumaturgy.

Evocation really isn't useful for that sort of subtle work.  A bit like asking how much surgery you can do in 30 seconds with an axe.

That's also one of the notable abilities of sponsored magic, the ability to do some aspects of thaumaturgy at evocation speeds and methods.

I wasn't aware of that aspect of things. It shines some light on the sorts of things that informed my thinking on this issue.

[Sanctaphrax]

Is it feasible for a wizard to have a mystical blind spot so that he or she turns out to be something like an elementalist? Thaumaturgy is not bound by the themes or restrictions of the Five Elements used in Evocation, but isn't it possible that a would-be wizard or an auto-didactic sorcerer might believe in those themes and restrictions and carries them over into her Thaumaturgy practices? Would that be your standard Wizard Template with an Aspect to reflect such a mystical blindspot or would that be a Focused Practitioner or something?

Either could work.

You could take an Aspect or you could just swap out Thaumaturgy for Ritual. I wouldn't expect any real problems with either approach.

[Bedurndurn]

I think a good guideline is that magic can do anything that will keep the game moving and that another player hasn't already taken as a niche. Can you hex open a lock? Well if another player wanted to be 'lock guy' enough that he's got Burglary at Great, then no. If you don't have an understanding like that, the wizard can Thaumaturgy literally any problem the table has by using his Lore skill in place of *anything*, which is handy for a single protagonist of a book, but ball-hogging in a group of 4 or 5 players who are supposed to be more or less mechanically equal.

[Haru]

I think a good guideline is that magic can do anything that will keep the game moving and that another player hasn't already taken as a niche. Can you hex open a lock? Well if another player wanted to be 'lock guy' enough that he's got Burglary at Great, then no. If you don't have an understanding like that, the wizard can Thaumaturgy literally any problem the table has by using his Lore skill in place of *anything*, which is handy for a single protagonist of a book, but ball-hogging in a group of 4 or 5 players who are supposed to be more or less mechanically equal.

Well said.