Author Topic: Maneuver Question  (Read 1853 times)

Offline eiredrake

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Maneuver Question
« on: April 05, 2013, 05:40:16 PM »
According to what I've been reading, I have a couple of questions about maneuvers.

A maneuver basically allows you to put a temporary aspect on either yourself, your opponent or the environment. In the case of an opponent you must roll an appropriate skill against their appropriate defense. Against the environment, you roll against a fixed difficulty as determined by the GM. Against yourself, no roll is needed as you are essentially making an unopposed test against yourself.

Exact success gives you a 'fragile' Aspect on the target that you get a free immediate Tag (or compel, or invoke... not sure which it is really). Each additional shift gives you another non-free (meaning you have to spend a Fate Point) use of the Aspect that you can tag. The opponent doesn't get any Fate points for the tag/compel/invoke.

Question 1: What does this give you?  Is it the same as what invoking one of your aspects gives you? Either a +2 to the die roll or a free re-roll?

Question 2: If the Maneuver is against the environment, can it then be invoked by other people such as your opponent? They would have to pay Fate for that I would imagine, since they didn't create the aspect they're invoking.

My next question requires a hypothetical scene to see if I understand.

Pirate A and Pirate B are sword fighting on the deck of a ship. Pirate A is losing, so he decides to fight dirty and use a maneuver. Because Pirate B is a significantly better swordsman Pirate A decides to maneuver against the environment and kick over a barrel of lamp oil that happens to be nearby. Pirate A rolls *something* against a fixed target the GM decides. In this case I will use Average (+1) since kicking/shoving over a barrel isn't all that hard. Pirate A gets say Great (+4), giving him 3 shifts and creating a 'fragile' aspect of 'The Deck is Covered in Oil!' that lasts a total of four uses.

Pirate A gets one immediate Tag against 'The Deck is Covered in Oil'. What effect does this have? Or does the Pirate or GM decide it or something? Seems to me that the Aspect could be used either defending against Pirate B or in attacking Pirate B.

Pirate A does his thing. Now it's Pirate B's turn. Pirate B notices (because he's smarter than a turnip) that 'The Deck is Covered in Oil'! and decides to Tag/Invoke/Compel that aspect (whichever one it is) to use against Pirate A. This costs him a Fate Point.

Question 3: What is the *something* that Pirate A would roll? Athletics? Might?

Question 4:  Does Pirate B's use of the Aspect tick off one of the uses that Pirate A got from his success roll?

Question 5: Does Pirate A get the Fate Point that Pirate B spends because Pirate B is using the aspect against him?

Question 6: When Pirate B uses 'The Deck is Covered In Oil' to enhance his attack against Pirate A.... can Pirate A also spend a point of Fate to use the same aspect to enhance his defense roll? Does Pirate B then get the Fate Point that Pirate A used?

I'm starting to wrap my brain around this whole aspect concept, though there's so many terms flying about it gets a little confusing. I just basically want to make sure I am comprehending this correctly.

That and I can completely see two Pirates duking it out and using dirty tricks against each other in my campaign, so I want to be prepared.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Maneuver Question
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2013, 05:52:11 PM »
Question 1: What does this give you?  Is it the same as what invoking one of your aspects gives you? Either a +2 to the die roll or a free re-roll?
Yes. A tag is the same as an invoke, the only difference being it doesn't cost a fate point. It can be used as a +2, a reroll, or as an invoke for effect.

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Question 2: If the Maneuver is against the environment, can it then be invoked by other people such as your opponent? They would have to pay Fate for that I would imagine, since they didn't create the aspect they're invoking.
Anyone can invoke any aspect that they have access to and have the fate points to spend on.

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Pirate A and Pirate B are sword fighting on the deck of a ship. Pirate A is losing, so he decides to fight dirty and use a maneuver. Because Pirate B is a significantly better swordsman Pirate A decides to maneuver against the environment and kick over a barrel of lamp oil that happens to be nearby. Pirate A rolls *something* against a fixed target the GM decides. In this case I will use Average (+1) since kicking/shoving over a barrel isn't all that hard. Pirate A gets say Great (+4), giving him 3 shifts and creating a 'fragile' aspect of 'The Deck is Covered in Oil!' that lasts a total of four uses.
It's not a total of four uses. Nor is it four exchanges. Getting extra shifts on the maneuver just means that it lasts, it doesn't delineate exactly how long it will last.

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Pirate A gets one immediate Tag against 'The Deck is Covered in Oil'. What effect does this have? Or does the Pirate or GM decide it or something? Seems to me that the Aspect could be used either defending against Pirate B or in attacking Pirate B.
It means whatever Pirate A can sell it to mean. It might mean a +2 against his next attack or for his next defense. It might mean he tags for the effect of knocking Pirate B on his keister.

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Question 3: What is the *something* that Pirate A would roll? Athletics? Might?
Depends on what skill he's using to knock over the barrel. I'd usually go with Might, but Fists or Weapons would work.

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Question 4:  Does Pirate B's use of the Aspect tick off one of the uses that Pirate A got from his success roll?
Again, the amount of success over the fragileness isn't how many uses it has.

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Question 5: Does Pirate A get the Fate Point that Pirate B spends because Pirate B is using the aspect against him?
No, that only happens if Pirate B is invoking one of Pirate A's aspects.

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Question 6: When Pirate B uses 'The Deck is Covered In Oil' to enhance his attack against Pirate A.... can Pirate A also spend a point of Fate to use the same aspect to enhance his defense roll? Does Pirate B then get the Fate Point that Pirate A used?
An aspect can only be invoked once per exchange, so no.
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Offline Cadd

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Re: Maneuver Question
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2013, 07:42:32 PM »
Mr. Death covered pretty much everything, but I noticed one thing.

A Maneuver to put an aspect on yourself - called a Navelgazing maneuver - can actually require a roll. If someone else is trying to stop you from doing it, you'll have to roll against whatever your opponent uses. The example used in the book is the opponent trying to distract (by shooting) against placing a "Deep in Concentration" aspect.

Offline Vairelome

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Re: Maneuver Question
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2013, 07:55:16 PM »
There was a general post on Maneuvers not that long ago; I wrote up a detailed response here.

Exact success gives you a 'fragile' Aspect on the target that you get a free immediate Tag (or compel, or invoke... not sure which it is really). Each additional shift gives you another non-free (meaning you have to spend a Fate Point) use of the Aspect that you can tag. The opponent doesn't get any Fate points for the tag/compel/invoke.

Aspects are either "fragile" or "sticky."  Fragile Aspects disappear on first use (use Guns to put "In My Sights" on a target, then next round tag it for an attack against that target); sticky Aspects last for the scene or until removed (usually by another Maneuver), whichever is shorter.  Exact success gives a fragile Aspect; any extra successes means the Aspect is sticky.  In either case, creating an Aspect gives you one free tag on that Aspect, which you have to use "soon" (and yes, that's deliberately ambiguous; how long a time "soon" is depends on circumstances).  The free tag may be used by yourself or passed off to an ally.

Question 3: What is the *something* that Pirate A would roll? Athletics? Might?

The rule of thumb for Athletics vs. Might is that you use Athletics to move yourself and you use Might to move other things.  In your example, Might would be the default skill, though if you could justify it, other skills like Fists (I punch a hole in the barrel!) or Weapons (I cut a hole in the barrel!) could be used.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Maneuver Question
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2013, 03:09:31 PM »
MrDeath answered most items, just adding a few points for clarity.
Pirate A and Pirate B are sword fighting on the deck of a ship. Pirate A is losing, so he decides to fight dirty and use a maneuver. Because Pirate B is a significantly better swordsman Pirate A decides to maneuver against the environment and kick over a barrel of lamp oil that happens to be nearby. Pirate A rolls *something* against a fixed target the GM decides. In this case I will use Average (+1) since kicking/shoving over a barrel isn't all that hard. Pirate A gets say Great (+4), giving him 3 shifts and creating a 'fragile' aspect of 'The Deck is Covered in Oil!' that lasts a total of four uses.
Regarding duration - there are really only two variations:  a fragile aspect lasts for one use which needs to occur relatively quickly after creation; a sticky aspect lasts until something is done to change it.  This could be another maneuver action (clean up the oil, throw sand across the oiled deck, etc) or simply scene or time based.  Either way, you only ever get one free 'tag'* on the aspect.

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Pirate A gets one immediate Tag against 'The Deck is Covered in Oil'. What effect does this have? Or does the Pirate or GM decide it or something? Seems to me that the Aspect could be used either defending against Pirate B or in attacking Pirate B.
See list below.  Unless initiating a compel, the tag will provide a bonus to a roll.

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Pirate A does his thing. Now it's Pirate B's turn. Pirate B notices (because he's smarter than a turnip) that 'The Deck is Covered in Oil'! and decides to Tag/Invoke/Compel that aspect (whichever one it is) to use against Pirate A. This costs him a Fate Point.

Question 6: When Pirate B uses 'The Deck is Covered In Oil' to enhance his attack against Pirate A.... can Pirate A also spend a point of Fate to use the same aspect to enhance his defense roll? Does Pirate B then get the Fate Point that Pirate A used?
Yes, both pirates may use the same aspect in the same exchange...if it makes sense.  While it may take some fast talking to convince me slippery decks will be helpful for defense there may well be a case where an aspect could be applied to both rolls. 

A given aspect may be used once per action / roll.  (YS99)  So both an attacker and a defender (two different actions) may use it.  However, it does need to be relevant to each action.

*Terminology is obfuscated in DFRPG.  Luckily FATE Core cleans it up some.  Here are some short definitions:
- A 'tag' is an invoke you receive for free.
- An 'invoke' is using an aspect to gain a bonus (usually +2) to a roll.
- An 'invoke for effect' is a compel initiated by a player.
- A 'compel' is using an aspect to change the narrative, forcing it in an aspect related direction.
There are some technical details between invoke for effect and compel which will have people disagreeing with me.  They've been discussed enough in other threads. 
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