Author Topic: Failure in games  (Read 16851 times)

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2013, 02:57:29 AM »
One game I was in I had entered one on one combat with an NPC who had attacked anther PC. This was unknown to my character as he was just trying to find out some information from this NPC. My character won but when he did the other PC saw him. The GM gave him a compel to kill the NPC and he took it. It caused complications and even though I had won the battle I had lost in my goal. This was still fun because it opened up new story line (such as getting arrested for taking the NPC's head and strolling down the road as police and firefighters start showing up). I find that as long as the story progresses and I am able to move forward I dont much care whether I win or lose. If I am constantly dying and having to make new characters thats not fun for me, but always getting the perfect win seems trivial and boring. Why should I bother fighting him when I know for a fact I will win and he will tell me everything I need to know.

Offline JDK002

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2013, 03:34:28 PM »
I'm glad your group had fun.  Are you trying to make a more general case that people often enjoy failure?  I certainly do not; one of my most recent games had frequent failures that snowballed into catastrophe, and it ranks as one of the least enjoyable games I've been involved with--I seriously considered walking out of the game three different times.  In another game from some years back, I was running a PC that ended up with legendarily unlucky dice, and despite being a reasonably optimized melee combatant, was an epic failure at combat largely due to dice--his very first action in his first combat involved rolling a 1 on a d20 four times in a row--and this trend continued through his existence as a PC.  It wasn't fun.

One of the reasons I game is the feeling of achievement that comes from successfully overcoming obstacles.  The games I've been involved with have usually had reasonably significant fictional stakes attached to conflicts, such that failing on any non-trivial level had unpleasant consequences.  I think this is broadly typical across most games played to the point that a story where "the PCs failed, and it was awesome!" is part of a tiny minority of all awesome gaming experiences.  Anecdotes such as the above don't disprove the trend; they merely point out an exception.
Constantly suffering failure after failure is no fun.  Be it through bad dice rolls, unbalanced encounters, or just bad decision making.  No one will argue that.  Though I still say failure can still be used as a means to move the story forward in a way that keeps the players interested and entertained.

Though this is almost squarely the responsibility of the GM.  They need to have a good sense of narrative tempo.  Knowing when to challenge the players, and knowing when to give them moments to feel empowered and bad ass.

Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2013, 03:49:58 PM »
Absolutely. I'd no more want constant failure in my games than I'd want constant success.

Offline Haru

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2013, 03:50:29 PM »
I'm glad your group had fun.  Are you trying to make a more general case that people often enjoy failure?  I certainly do not; one of my most recent games had frequent failures that snowballed into catastrophe, and it ranks as one of the least enjoyable games I've been involved with--I seriously considered walking out of the game three different times.
I'm curious. Was it the failures themselves or was it the circumstances of those failures? I know games you talk about, and they usually force an outcome on me, and I have no say about whether I would want it or not. That, to me, is more troublesome than failure itself.

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That's another good point, I think. Failure and defeat give a sense of personal investment. I don't just go after the villain because he's the bad guy and I'm the good guy, I do so, because be personally wronged me, and I want to return in kind.
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Offline Vairelome

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2013, 10:39:45 PM »
I'm curious. Was it the failures themselves or was it the circumstances of those failures? I know games you talk about, and they usually force an outcome on me, and I have no say about whether I would want it or not. That, to me, is more troublesome than failure itself.

Short answer: it was both.  Long answer...we'd be here a while, because a full examination of everything that went wrong in that game would involve long ranty walls of text.  The group was completely split in and out of character and I think the DM was trying to ramp up the opposition at several points in order to push the PCs into working together--and if that was the intended strategy, it failed HARD.  In the epilogue, my character ended up as a mind-controlled minion of the Big Bad...and that's just a few of the specifics.

One of the initial red flags should have been that the DM wanted "a game where the characters weren't optimized for the important skills."  I hate this idea with a fiery passion, and will never EVER play in that type of game again.  In DFRPG terms, it translates directly to "I'm going to make sure your Aspects and apex skills aren't relevant."  A major part of the plot was a murder mystery, and none of the PCs were particularly good at investigation.  My character's skills were probably closest, but he had no Empathy, so NPCs could just lie to him all day and he'd have no clue (I was proud of the design of that character; in his normal operation, he'd be working with good investigators, but he wasn't one himself).  The reason none of us were designed for mystery-solving is because we lifted the characters from a one-shot game another guy was running nearby in the same universe.

Absolutely. I'd no more want constant failure in my games than I'd want constant success.

Constant failure is obviously no fun.  A fair number of people find constant success to be quite fun.  The extremes aside, in my opinion, the vast majority of players would be best satisfied by a general theme of success spiced by a few comparatively-minor setbacks here and there.  The cases aren't symmetric.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2013, 10:57:47 PM »
A) that sux, I don't think I would want to play in that game either, not would I ever run a game like that.

B) that's pretty much the point. I like minor setbacks and a chance to win every round. I don't want to have an ensured victory every time I battle

Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2013, 11:01:46 PM »
Absolutely. In the end, I want to defeat the bad guy, and I want to do it by my character's own ability rather than have someone else do it for me. But I want it to be a dangerous road.

Offline Haru

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2013, 11:07:59 PM »
Ok, that sounds totally fubar. I've had games like that before, it's not fun.

I'm kind of trying to find a way to formulate what exactly I think about this, thus those questions. I think Lavecki's put it quite well. The player characters are the heroes, which means it is kind of implied, that - ultimately - they will win the war. However, that does not mean they will win every battle they are in. I think that sums up my view pretty good.

I've just started reading "reality is broken", by Jane McGonigal. I'm not very far in, but so far it seems to touch on quite a few things in this topic. For example, she points out, that the body reacts in the same way if you are in danger or if you are playing a game, regarding adrenaline and such. The only difference is the state of mind, which makes one of them fun and one of them not.
"Being in peril isn't fun. Pretending to be is." I kind of like that.
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Offline Taran

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2013, 11:10:35 PM »
"Being in peril isn't fun. Pretending to be is."

Now you just have to make a character with that as an aspect  ;)

Offline Vairelome

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2013, 02:35:47 AM »
"Being in peril isn't fun. Pretending to be is." I kind of like that.

This is an excellent point, and one I want to expand on, because I think it has implications on two different levels in this discussion.

The first and more trivial level is that a tabletop RPG is a game, and while our characters may face mortal peril, the worst thing a player has to confront is the possibility of a papercut in terms of physical danger.  So in the most obvious sense, a game is often about pretending to be in peril.

The second level, though, is the one the characters are on.  I think most of us agree that a certain amount of in-character danger heightens the experience of the game by adding dramatic tension and fictional high-stakes action.  We need antagonists, and those antagonists must threaten something we care about in order to motivate our characters to action.  Let's call the stakes something like "little Suzie will be eaten by vampires."  (And for the sake of the hypothetical, rescuing little Suzie is the point of this game.)

It's pretty clear that preventing little Suzie from being eaten by vampires is a good and noble goal, worth pursuing.  But for there to be proper dramatic tension, we must also believe that interrupting the vampires' midnight snack will be a hazardous mission with perils aplenty--how else would our characters demonstrate their heroic attributes?  If one PC can solve the issue with a phone call, or everyone knows that these vampires turn to dust when you merely brandish a crucifix at them, the outcome probably won't be very exciting.  To be sure, you still want little Suzie to stay topped up on her blood supply, but there's not much drama if no effort is required.

The key word in the above is "believe," however.  The vampires in question could be paper villains that the PCs have a 95%+ chance of defeating (assuming reasonable competence on their part), but the action will be every bit as satisfying for those involved so long as the players' willing suspension of disbelief isn't violated.  Therefore, it is beneficial for all involved if the DM talks up the potency of those vampires and the risk of failure for the PCs--and for the most part, the bigger disparity between perceived threat and actual threat the better, as long as the players continue to buy in to the perception.

If we want to maximize the perceived threat, and there's only so far we can talk up a differential between perception and in-game reality, why not just make the opposition very powerful, on a par with the PCs if not surpassing them?  If the antagonists and the PCs are on an actual par with each other, exactly balanced in skill and competence, then the actual risk of failure is 50%.  Nobody really wants to see little Suzie drained to a husk like an old Capri Sun juice packet, so making the actual chance of that happening 50/50 is rather harsh on both Suzie and the PCs, and a series of games where the overall PC failure rate was 50% is going to lose player interest quickly.

For that reason, I'd bet actual PC failure rate is closer to 5%, and in many groups, probably lower than 1% with stakes like little Suzie wishes she had.  You only have to actually throw little Suzie to the wolves (different campaign: she's very unlucky, really) once in a great while to get a lot of perceived threat the next time she's in trouble--and it's even better if the failure can be used to motivate more competent effort on the part of the players next time.

TL;DR  Part of the fun is pretending that make-believe characters are in more peril than they're actually in.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2013, 02:48:21 AM »
If we want to maximize the perceived threat, and there's only so far we can talk up a differential between perception and in-game reality, why not just make the opposition very powerful, on a par with the PCs if not surpassing them?  If the antagonists and the PCs are on an actual par with each other, exactly balanced in skill and competence, then the actual risk of failure is 50%.  Nobody really wants to see little Suzie drained to a husk like an old Capri Sun juice packet, so making the actual chance of that happening 50/50 is rather harsh on both Suzie and the PCs, and a series of games where the overall PC failure rate was 50% is going to lose player interest quickly.
I find that talking up the villains doesn't do much--especially if, when the fur starts to fly, the players are rolling 5s, 4s, and the occasional 6 or 7, while the vampires are rolling 3s. The best, "Well, we're in deep trouble now" reaction I've ever got from them was when I had a villain rolling 8s to dodge and then pointing out that said villain had beaten the party tank to within an inch of her life on nothing but straight rolls.

That said, equal skills/abilities between PC and NPC doesn't make the chance of failure 50-50. The PCs will have a built in fate-point pool and are likely to have had several compels before reaching the confrontation--something that likely can't be said for the vampires--which can be used to nudge the right rolls in their favor.
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Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #71 on: March 31, 2013, 03:05:12 AM »
My group just had their 1st Epic fail after I felt I hadn't been challenging them enough.  Sent to rescue a student couple from a militia led by a WCV that fed off Fear, they discovered they intended to set off a 2000 pound car bomb, compliments of Nicodemus.  Too bad they missed a few clues and failed to follow up a lead or two regarding the ultimate target. 
Good news: They rescued the student couple and helped kill the WCV. 
Bad news: They totally botched the target of the car bomb.
Result:  They got a phone call from Father Forthill, reporting Harry Dresden intercepting a car bomb bound for the Carpenter's house.  He managed to get it to Lake Michigan when it exploded--far enough to avoid collateral damage to innocent civilians, not far enough for Harry Dresden. 
Oh, and Donald Morgan (who's alive and kicking in my game) is now in charge of all Great Lakes Wardens in my game. 

And yet, while the players understood that they lost and how they lost, they were okay with it and still said they had fun and enjoyed themselves.  Yay me. 
My Purity score: 37.2.  Sad.

Offline Vairelome

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #72 on: March 31, 2013, 04:22:39 AM »
I find that talking up the villains doesn't do much--especially if, when the fur starts to fly, the players are rolling 5s, 4s, and the occasional 6 or 7, while the vampires are rolling 3s. The best, "Well, we're in deep trouble now" reaction I've ever got from them was when I had a villain rolling 8s to dodge and then pointing out that said villain had beaten the party tank to within an inch of her life on nothing but straight rolls.

To an extent, this was why the traditional DM screen existed: to keep the players from knowing exactly how tough the opposition was immediately.  In the DFRPG, where a lot of Aspect-bidding happens after the dice are rolled and everyone knows the margin to beat, there's more transparency.  That said, things like mid-fight reinforcements, unexpected abilities, and other shenanigans allow the DM to keep the players on their toes.

That said, equal skills/abilities between PC and NPC doesn't make the chance of failure 50-50. The PCs will have a built in fate-point pool and are likely to have had several compels before reaching the confrontation--something that likely can't be said for the vampires--which can be used to nudge the right rolls in their favor.

In my hypothetical, yes, it does.  It wouldn't be equal if one side had an advantage (like a stocked FP pool) that the other side lacked.  This is primarily the point of FPs (and specifically the PCs usually having more than the villains): it gives the PCs an edge that starts off at +2 per FP and can go higher depending on the ingenuity of the players' invokes.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #73 on: March 31, 2013, 01:07:36 PM »
See, my games are usually a series of successful bad decisions.  The players make a misguided choice because they're under pressure.  They succeed with their plans (or their plans modified after wrenches are thrown at them repeatedly), but their plans themselves have unintended consequences.  Police investigation, awakening great evil, pissing off one accord party or the other, getting an ally killed, starting ragnarok, or losing a really good bottle of scotch.  This was a theme we established when we started playing (based on our groups affection for The Dresden Files, Hellboy, and Hellblazer). 

On the rare instances they come up with a plan to avoid these consequences, they do.  And I don't come up with the consequences until after their plan has succeeded, or they've at least come up with the plan.

Offline fantazero

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Re: Failure in games
« Reply #74 on: March 31, 2013, 07:01:11 PM »
Complications are fun.
I also enjoy NPCs who don't feel they need to fight to the death.