Channeling vs Evocation Cost

[austiknight]

I think it's important to understand that your elements are just how you see the world. So if your Cloud Evocations include some of water and some of air and lightning and whatever else, that's fine. Or if your understanding of water includes order and cleansing instead of entropy. Every practitioner doesn't see every element the same way and won't use it the same way. So (in my view) many of them could be narrower or more broad in range depending on the array of effects the player could explain (and the practitioner could wrap his head around) using thatelement.

And I agree Tedronai, many of the elements I listed (off the top of my head during a lecture /shame) step on other elements' toes. And a practitioner who understood the elements through a gazillion element system and chose 3 closely related elements would likely have a narrower range than someone who chose very different elements. This would be an issue with such a system, but not much of a handicap (just fewer maneuver options) in play.

Still, I can see the attraction of choosing something like Water, Ice and Blood. You want to be a kickin' water-witch (or waterbender, lol)

In fact, I think it would probably be a good answer to my original question of how to make a specialist keep up with someone who has full-blown Evocation. (With 3 related elements, you can take multiple specializations without running into the column issue).

And yes, obviously this bit of business would not be for every player or every practitioner. If it's a mechanical limitation, I'd think it relatively mild, but crazy element systems could open up options for players who were into that sort of thing.

[Haru]

Rewording Evocation to have a more powerful focused practitioner is absolutely valid, I've proposed this a while ago, even done so with one character. It's a good way to combine the flavor of a focused practitioner with the power of a wizard.

[Lavecki121]

Yea. I simply don't see how have 25 elements as opposed to 5 is that much of a mechanical limitation. Thematic limitation maybe, but definitely not mechanical

[Tedronai]

In a game of creative rationalisation, the ease of that rationalisation becomes a 'mechanical issue'.

[Haru]

Yea. I simply don't see how have 25 elements as opposed to 5 is that much of a mechanical limitation. Thematic limitation maybe, but definitely not mechanical

I don't really see broadening one element as creating an evocation system of 25 elements. If you upgrade your aquamancer to a "5 aspects of water"-evocator, he's still an aquamancer. Once you decide to give him an aspect of another element, I would fold it all into the regular evocation elements and put all his different specializations for the water aspects under one water specialization.

@Tedronai
I think the limitation here is wanted. Like I said, you are till playing an aquamancer (or a pyro, terra, whatevermancer). Splitting up the element into subelements just allows you to take evocation and buy specializations with refinement, per the usual evocation rules. Yes, it is suboptimal, but I believe that is wanted in a case like this.

[Tedronai]

Yes, it is suboptimal, but I believe that is wanted in a case like this.

There's a reason I said 'think carefully' rather than 'don't do it'.
Players/GMs doing this should be aware of exactly what it is that they're doing, and what it will mean for their characters.  If they're OK with playing a suboptimal character, and doing so will not have an appreciable negative impact on those around them (ie. won't drag the rest of the group down with them), then more power to them.

[Haru]

There's a reason I said 'think carefully' rather than 'don't do it'.

Well, now I feel kind of silly. Apologies.

Though I don't even see the danger of such a character dragging down a group. In any conflict, he'll be pretty much as powerful as any wizard with full evocation (maybe even more, since he isn't forced to take thaumaturgy). Even being less versatile, I think, is only half true. Since you have that limitation by choice, you surely think about ways to work around some, if not all of those limitations.

And since you have full evo, I would even say that it is legitimate to have say heat effects with water (I admit, fire might be stretching it, but that's more a compel on your "aquamancer" aspect). Full evo with one element coloring the effects of the others, if you will. At least that's one way to look at it.

[Lavecki121]

You still aren't telling me how it is sub optimal to have 25 elements as opposed to five there is no mechanical benefit from being able to do something. Most elements can do just that and I can challenge you to an effect that would be impossible to achieve with any of the five elements, given the right thematic explanation. There for if I make more elements that don't have explicit crossover, then there is no reason that the mechanical advantage would change

EDIT: even with crossover I don't think it would matter much

[austiknight]

Again, I think having 25 (probably overlapping elements) would make it easier to make a character with fewer options than a full-on evocator, that is not a necessary thing or even a necessarily unwanted (if you want to make a kickin' aquamancer) thing.

But otherwise, I really don't think having 100 elements that you don't jive with is more disadvantage than having 2 for a fire/water/spirit (or whatever 3 elements) evocator.

[Lavecki121]

Right. I'm just using 25 as a ridiculous example, but a system that used 7 elements instead of five? Not really game changing. One that used 4? Still there isn't much difference. The only thing it effects is the "new element" voice with refinement, but that doesn't break anything really

[Tedronai]

Determine the effects you would deem reasonable for each of the current 5 evocation elements.
Divide those same effects, with similar levels of overlap (ie. a bit, but not really all that much) among a new set of 25 elements.
Compare the number of effects available to each of the new elements to the number available to each of the current elements.  Note how the former number is lower than the latter.


Or, I challenge you to apply the same principles of balance to other facets of the game mechanics, like, say, Incite Emotion.

[Lavecki121]

Determine the effects you would deem reasonable for each of the current 5 evocation elements.
Divide those same effects, with similar levels of overlap (ie. a bit, but not really all that much) among a new set of 25 elements.
Compare the number of effects available to each of the new elements to the number available to each of the current elements.  Note how the former number is lower than the latter.


Or, I challenge you to apply the same principles of balance to other facets of the game mechanics, like, say, Incite Emotion.

A) Not neccessarally. Plus you are simply assuming that I am extrapolating more elements from the 5 provided instead of comming up with new ones.

B) I dont understand the connotation for incite emotion when it covers all emotions and has been changed in the custom powers list already to incite effect which covers a lot of things, so....

[Tedronai]

A) Not neccessarally. Plus you are simply assuming that I am extrapolating more elements from the 5 provided instead of comming up with new ones.

If you're simply coming up with new effects to be available for evocation, or new combinations of existing effects, without diluting those already available among a wider elemental paradigm, then what you're doing is, in fact, making evocation MORE powerful.
Players and GMs should think very carefully in that case, too.

B) I dont understand the connotation for incite emotion when it covers all emotions and has been changed in the custom powers list already to incite effect which covers a lot of things, so....

Reducing the number of options to choose from without reducing the number of effects to be distributed among them would significantly increase their potency.
Increasing the number of options without increasing the number of effects to be distributed among them would significantly decrease their potency.
Adding new options for new effects significantly increases the utility of the Power, and thus it's potential potency. (Incite Effect is actually potentially quite a bit more powerful than Incite Emotion; personally, I do not see a typical usage of this increase as problematic, but players and GMs should still be careful not to abuse it)

[Lavecki121]

If you're simply coming up with new effects to be available for evocation, or new combinations of existing effects, without diluting those already available among a wider elemental paradigm, then what you're doing is, in fact, making evocation MORE powerful.
Players and GMs should think very carefully in that case, too.

I dont think that is true. I can choose fire and come up with many different effects, some of which will cross over into other elements. The same holds true for every element of the 5 written. Changing the elements all together and going for the same 5 variety is not any different than changing it and making 6 or 4 or keeping it the same and taking some out or adding some in. I could take out spirit for instance and have Earth, Wind, Water, Fire. The ammount of available effects for my evocation hasnt changed, even if the total elements have. The same is true if I add wood to make it Earth, Wind, Water, Fire, Spirit, Wood. I can still get the same number of effects. This is my point. The element is the flavor of the effect but the effects dont really change.

EDIT: The only things you can do with evocation is Attack; Block; Armor; Maneuver ect. It doesn't matter what element you use, these are what you are doing.

[Tedronai]

Then you'd be fine with a character whose magical paradigm included only the single element 'magic', capable of replicating all effects available to each of the canon elements?
Or giving a character using Incite Emotion access to any and all emotions without paying a single point of extra refresh?
After all, the mechanical tools used to represent what they can do with those power are just attack, block, and maneuver.