Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?

[Bedurndurn]

So my group gave Neutral Grounds a try and had a good time with Fate and DF. It looks like the GM wants to run an Up to Your Waist level game for our group. I've given YS a read, and here's my problem in a nutshell: wizards seem to be really good at stuff. This is probably to be expected in a game based on a series of books about a wizard, but the part of my personality that likes big numbers on my character sheet (I am a flawed man. I believe in this system that means I get more fate points, so that's nice), demands that I pick at some bits.

So remembering that our campaign's set at UtYW, this seems like the best mechanical character choice:

Template (Focused Practitioner)
Lore and Discipline at Great, Conviction at Good
Powers/Stunts: Channeling [-2] and Ritual [-2] (I'm less sure on the elements/theme for these, but that seems up to player preference)

Now if I've understood this so far, it looks like that means that I get 4 focus item slots. I think (I'm less sure here) that I could use all 4 slots to get a focus item that gave a +4 to offensive control of whatever element I chose for Channeling.

That seems crazy, crazy strong. Fate dice have excellent central tendency, so what your modified skill is is fairly likely to be what you actually get when you roll. With this character, that would mean a typical combat would be tossing out an attack with Weapon: 3,4,5 and 6 each at 8 to control. (Is that accurate? I believe you get up to your Conviction rating in power for 1 mental stress, with each point of overflow increasing the incoming mental stress by 1. Since once the 1 box is filled in on the character's stress track, a stress 1 hit is just as damaging as a stress 2 hit, and he's got control to spare, he might as well ramp up in power each round). Now I'm only going by the other Neutral Grounds sample characters, but even with a dodge roll of 4 (which many of them didn't have the capacity to do), that'd be 7,8,9, and 10 points physical stress. The biggest non-wizard combatant from that pack is probably the werewolf who gets to attack at 4 with a weapon: 4 attack and his adjusted refresh is 2 worse than this wizard. If he swung at the equivalent dodge score of 4, he'd only get 4 physical stress a round (so it takes about 9 rounds for him to lay equivalent hurt).

I both understand that the game is not based around PvP (so maybe comparing PC attack strength vs PC defenses isn't a good metric) and that there is a heck of a lot more to RPGing than combat encounters, but:

• This guy's still got more than half of his skill points to spend, so that second career as a whatever is still within reach.
• He's got as good of a Lore as he can get at this tier and thaumaturgy (well one aspect of it at least) to play around with.
• His adjusted refresh is a 3 for this power level, so there's still room to fiddle with for additional stunts/powers.
• I didn't do anything crazy with him other than realize that points of offensive control are strictly better than points of offensive power for evocation and then bought as many of them as I could. I'm sure someone with more experience can do something more excessive within the bounds of the rule set.

So what are viable options for people who aren't wizards in this game? I don't think anybody can get the +4 to attack rolls that this guy has (nor honestly should they). The guidelines for stunts says that a stunts shouldn't give a +2 to the majority of a skill's use and that stunts don't stack, so it looks like the best anyone who isn't a wizard can get for an attack bonus is +1 and it will cost them 1 refresh point to do so. Inhuman strength and a sword seems like a pretty good combo (you'd get Weapon:5 and you could take some sort of +1 to hitting people with a sword stunt), but with the to-hit bonus stunt and the strength itself, that's only 1 refresh cheaper than this guy's powers for not nearly the same output. If the inhumanly strong can claim the +1 bonus for Might modifying them stabbing other people, then they'd get a little closer, but still be 2 points below the wizard's attack rating (and lower than the wizard's weapon rating for two rounds, and they have to be in melee when the wizard doesn't, and the wizard has the option of blasting a whole zone, and thaumaturgy, and intentional hexing, and yadda yadda yadda).

Now the wizard does run out of juice 4 rounds into a combat. That's certainly a downside. He also throws hot enough that if the opposition was balanced around the rest of the party it's already dead and if the opposition was balanced around what the wizard can do, it's time to leave because everyone else probably can't get the job done without him. Since the wizard is virtually guaranteed to hit and has a big weapon rating, it probably also makes sense for the other players to aid him blowing stuff up by bringing beneficial aspects into being, but to borrow a sports comparison, that effectively makes the wizard Lebron James and the rest of the party The People On Lebron James's Team Who Lacked the Foresight to Be Lebron James, which I bet will get thin real quick.

The wizard also isn't supposed to kill people with magic. That's a downside. But that's also like the lowest of low bars (since everyone else probably also shouldn't murder people, it being y'know murder and all), and since he can dictate what happens to whoever he takes out, it seems like a hard problem to have in Fate (though I guess not impossible).

So I guess that turned out more like a manifesto than a question, but to sum up: Wizards seem to be real good at stuff, can I make other archetypes also be good at stuff or if I like being good at stuff should I just play a wizard and then maybe forget that I can do stupid things to my attack roll?

[Tedronai]

Things to consider:
your proposed focused practitioner is, himself, quite squishy (3 defense at best, no meaningful facility with magical blocks, at best 4 physical stress boxes)
he can't safely perform large thaumaturgy without devoting significant resources to safely controlling the summoned power
he's highly unlikely to be particularly adept in any time-sensitive task that can't be solved by hitting things with a big stick (half his points spent doesn't mean all that much when they've been spent at the top of his skill pyramid; he's not getting much of anything else above a 2)

Consider a character with Inhuman Str and Spd, a +1 attack stunt, a +2 defense stunt, and an 'Armed Arts' equivalent for Athletics
throw in Feeding Dependancy and Human Form to make the build more affordable
With ONE skill (athletics) invested at great, this character is attacking at 6 with weapon 4 or 5, and defending at 7, every round, without having to burn stress to do it

[Haru]

Yes, wizards can do a lot. In fact, they can do almost anything, given time. If your only concern is efficiency, a wizard is a good way to go. Or better yet, an Alchemist, a focused practitioner with ritual(crafting). They will take down pretty much anything, given time. However, even a wizard isn't really good at everything. With your magic skills maxed, your other skills will automatically fall behind. Social skills for example. It is true, that a wizard can do a thaumaturgy ritual to replace most skills, but those take time that is not always available. And some things just can't be replaced, because it just wouldn't make sense.

In a low refresh game, pretty much anything can be pretty powerful, and part of the balancing in this system are the character aspects. So if you create a wizard that is always busting through walls if a problem occurs, he can be compelled to do exactly that, even if you know that more subtle matters would lead to a better solution. If you describe your wizard as being good at the details and fine stuff, he won't be much of a blaster.

I don't really like to go from efficiency when deciding on a character that I want to play. I usually look for a cool idea and then start to build it up to be as powerful as the power level allows. If you limit yourself to a wizard, it's going to get old after a while.

There is the typical were-something build, which can be pretty powerful, because you can have two skill sets. Typical would be one social set in human form, and a combat set in animal form. Though there are other options of course, depending on the animal. If you want to go sneaky, any small animal with "diminutive size" will get a +4 bonus on being stealthy, which in an UtYW game will equal a skill of 8, if stealth is maxed out. Add to that a stunt, and you won't even have to roll for most sneaky attempts. If you go for a sneak attack, you might be able to take out your target with one attack, if you set up a good ambush.

Holy men can be pretty powerful, too. The ability to get +1 on EVERY roll, simply by devoting themselves to a cause is nothing to sneeze at. Spending a fate point to solve pretty much any trouble you could encounter is a cool thing as well.

Items of Power are a cool thing as well, and as powerful as you like. I've got a character in my pbp game, who's got a packet full of magical trinkets that he can use. We did this by combining Item of Power and modular abilities. He can only use one item at the time, but he makes them count. So far, he's had a magnifying glass with the psychometry power, an amulet made of a pheonix eggs shell that grants recovery, and the boots of Hermes that grant him wings. We don't have a list of items he's got, we just decide on the items when he wants to use them.

Then, of course, there are things that don't fall into any templates, and if you have an idea for a character, that you don't know if it would or could be powerful, just post it, and I (and probably a few other forumites) will create a decent build out of your idea.

[Deadmanwalking]

The problem with Evocation is that it's not very good defensively (the numbers are potentially high, but you need a different Focus Item for it, and it takes an action), meaning you're relying on a non-peak skill for defense, and you can't do it very long. The character you hypothesize has a base of Legendary to hit, sure, but his attacks are only Weapon 3-6 and, as you note, he's pretty much limited to 4 attacks, and he's a huge target with only Good defenses at best, and no Toughness abilities. Now, if you use his remaining Refresh properly you can plug those holes (defensive Enchanted Items are some of the best defenses available in the game)...but that will use up their remaining Refresh, and is necessary to avoid just getting taken out as a glass cannon.

A physically potent character could easily have Great (or, with True Strike, Superb) attack at Weapon 7, Superb defenses, and Toughness powers and he could have them all day long, actually, you could do that with only 5 Refresh as, say, a Changeling with a magic sword:

Skills: Great Weapons, still has all his other skills free.

Stunt: Footwork (as the Fists Stunt, but for Weapons)

Powers:

Inhuman Strength [-2]
Inhuman Toughness [-2]
Inhuman Recovery [-2]
The Catch is Cod Iron [+3]

Item of Power (Sword) [+2] effecting;
Supernatural Strength [-2]
True Strike [-1, as the Sword of the Cross power of the same name]

There, quick example. And that's not even getting into non-combat characters and how useful they can potentially be. Or the potential brokenness of Incite Emotion. Or how potentially awesome Beast Change is. Or a host of other things. Wizards are indeed cool and powerful...but they aren't unbeatable, or the only useful things around.

[InFerrumVeritas]

Honestly, I've found for mid-lower level games there are two other really effective character choices:

Shapeshifters.  Beast change lets you essentially pick two things to be great at.  Have one form be physical combat focused and the other be socially focused and you have a great combination.  Sure, you're typically maxing out at Superb attacks (with a stunt granting +1), but you're incredibly versatile.  With a power like "Sacred Guardian" you can really stack those numbers.

Physic Abilities. The "Incite Emotion" powerset can easily be called broken, and is really, really effective against a variety of opponents.  Don't underestimate it.  For the two refresh you're dealing mental stress.  For four, you're dealing Weapon 4 mental stress at a range.  Oh, and that skill is good for both social situations and combat.  Win-win.

There's also a lot to be said for being a Pure Mortal with good compellable aspects.  That bucket of fate points that you don't get can easily help push those rolls up.

Also, tacking Glamors on something with Incite Emotion tied to Deceit is really nasty, but can get expensive.

[bobjob]

The Catch is Cod Iron [+3]

The fishiest iron I think would only provide +0. I mean, you have to find a fish working iron to be able to bypass his toughness, which is rare. What about Sturgeon Steel? Would that also work?

[JDK002]

Spell casters are strong in this game.  Point for point they hit harder than most any other build.  The problem is they tend to be lacking in just about every other aspect.  Also consider that casters can run out of juice quick next to other combat types.  A combat focused shapeshifter with fast transformation will always be doing consistent damage and have some defenseive powers without needing to consider mental stress.

Also consider that your focus items are not physically attached to you.  A popular trick to trip up casters is to temporaraly disarm them of their foci.  One of my players is an absolute terror with a sword.  If she gets in close and disarms a wizard, they have to spend an action to make a "rearmed" Maneuver.  If they do that, they can't prepair a shield, which means a moderate or severe consequence is almost certain when she attacks them next turn.

Another pure mortal player had plenty of fate points, narratve justification, and resources/contact skill to obtain "kryptonite" or buy temporary powers for just about anything he faced off against.

In short magic users are great when being magicy, they are average at best in just about everything else.  I would suggest not being too number crunchy, just come up with an interesting character concept and back story.  Then take powers that fit the character, you can always refine the character as you play.

[Dr.FunLove]

In short magic users are great when being magicy, they are average at best in just about everything else.  I would suggest not being too number crunchy, just come up with an interesting character concept and back story.  Then take powers that fit the character, you can always refine the character as you play.

Totally agree with this paragraph.

[blackstaff67]

The fishiest iron I think would only provide +0. I mean, you have to find a fish working iron to be able to bypass his toughness, which is rare. What about Sturgeon Steel? Would that also work?

It could work, provided he's wearing a coat of Scale Mail.

[bobjob]

It could work, provided he's wearing a coat of Scale Mail.

Badumpsh.

WHOOOOO RULES FROM A PINEAPPLE UNDER THE SEA! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT. Scale Mail made of Cod Iron as hard as can be! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! A Sturgeon Steel Sword as sharp as you wish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! He stabs you with it and you flop like a fish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob... FISH KNIGHT!

[JDK002]

Badumpsh.

WHOOOOO RULES FROM A PINEAPPLE UNDER THE SEA! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT. Scale Mail made of Cod Iron as hard as can be! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! A Sturgeon Steel Sword as sharp as you wish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! He stabs you with it and you flop like a fish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob... FISH KNIGHT!

I am concerned and frightened.  You sir or madam, have way WAY to much time on your hands. =P

[Taran]

Badumpsh.

WHOOOOO RULES FROM A PINEAPPLE UNDER THE SEA! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT. Scale Mail made of Cod Iron as hard as can be! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! A Sturgeon Steel Sword as sharp as you wish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! He stabs you with it and you flop like a fish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob... FISH KNIGHT!

*groan*  but I like.

[Dr.FunLove]

Badumpsh.

WHOOOOO RULES FROM A PINEAPPLE UNDER THE SEA! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT. Scale Mail made of Cod Iron as hard as can be! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! A Sturgeon Steel Sword as sharp as you wish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! He stabs you with it and you flop like a fish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob... FISH KNIGHT!

My God...

[Haru]

Badumpsh.

WHOOOOO RULES FROM A PINEAPPLE UNDER THE SEA! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT. Scale Mail made of Cod Iron as hard as can be! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! A Sturgeon Steel Sword as sharp as you wish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! He stabs you with it and you flop like a fish! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob FISH KNIGHT! Sponge Bob... FISH KNIGHT!

I smell something fishy. If this continues, this thread needs a sturgeon general warning.

[Taran]

I smell something fishy. If this continues, this thread needs a sturgeon general warning.

Don't be so harsh, Haru.  I really think it has Sole.