Author Topic: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?  (Read 56352 times)

Offline Vairelome

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #240 on: April 01, 2013, 11:58:30 PM »
People carrying a pistol or having rifle in the window of their trucks might get a few looks but if its legal in their state the looks are less "OMG they have a gun" and more "i dont like that they have a gun."

Or possibly, "I wonder what I'll have for lunch today?"  In most states in the US where open carry is the preferred methodology, people with guns aren't exactly an uncommon sight.  Wandering around in a constant state of alarm would be rather silly, especially since those parts of the US also have the lowest crime rates.

Now, if your game is set in a big city, like Chicago, New York, or Washington, D.C., the typical reaction would be very different.  Due to historically very tight restrictions on gun ownership (that are in the process of going away), usually only criminals and cops will be visibly packing heat.

Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #241 on: April 02, 2013, 12:35:17 AM »

Now, if your game is set in a big city, like Chicago, New York, or Washington, D.C., the typical reaction would be very different.  Due to historically very tight restrictions on gun ownership (that are in the process of going away), usually only criminals and cops will be visibly packing heat.

Don't know where you live but the restrictions are getting stricter in places like that. Though I do agree with the first part of your statement

Offline Taran

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #242 on: April 02, 2013, 01:50:27 AM »
Wandering around in a constant state of alarm would be rather silly, especially since those parts of the US also have the lowest crime rates.

That's a pretty broad statement and I'm not really sure how accurate it is...
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 01:53:17 AM by Taran »

Offline Tedronai

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #243 on: April 02, 2013, 02:25:58 AM »
Somewhat off topic, though.
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Offline gantrakk

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #244 on: April 02, 2013, 05:10:15 AM »
Whilst I am generally more on the side of it is a bit cheap to constantly walk around in full body armour. It should be relatively trivial to do so in most places by the simple expedient of owning a motorcycle. With a little bit of creativity it shouldn't be hard to make your stab or bullet protective armour look a hell of a lot like the full on protective equipment you see some people where. It may be a harder sell if you step out of a car but if you can't think of a better one there is always the excuse of I was running late and didn't have enough time to change.

Offline toturi

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #245 on: April 02, 2013, 06:22:15 AM »
Coveralls, hard hat/safety helmet and/or safety glasses.

Not all that difficult to make those stab & impact resistant. In some case, it can be quite trivial, if they come in models/make that incorporate those protections.
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Offline crusher_bob

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #246 on: April 02, 2013, 06:28:40 AM »
Relatively new 'covert' vests can be rated both IIIa (good vs pistols and shotguns) and stab/edged II (which I think is rated for everything other than things like full body charges with a spiked weapon.

In the game, this is somewhere between armor 1 and armor 2, depending on how you want to model things.

A vest with class III or class IV plates (which will protect against rifle fire) can't really be worn covertly.  That is, you can't say, shake hands with someone and have trouble noticing they are wearing armor.  That's somewhere between armor 2 and armor 3 in game terms.

If differentiating between various armors became important in the game:

Armor 1:
a variety of 'home made' protective gear, just as motorcycle leathers, jumberjack and/or various tool resistant clothing (lumberjack chaps, etc).  Not usually concealable.

Or old/reconditioned modern armor.  concealable.

Resources 1 (around 200-300 USD to acquire)

Armor 2:
Actual 'plate' or 'mail' style metal armor.  or 'modern' concealable armors

Resources 2 (around 400-800 USD for modern armor, considerably more for metal armor)

Armor 3:
Technologically reenforced plate or mail armor. 
Non-concealable modern armors (includes helmet, fragment goggles, etc.

edging into resources 3 (An armor 2 vest, and then another 400-800 USD or so for the strike plates, add several hundred more for things like helmet, goggles, knee and elbow pads, etc.
------------

This would mean that most police you'd meet in the US would have armor 2, and most US troops you'd see in Iraq or Afghanistan would have armor 3.

Offline Vairelome

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #247 on: April 02, 2013, 09:53:24 AM »
Don't know where you live but the restrictions are getting stricter in places like that. Though I do agree with the first part of your statement

Concerning the state of American gun laws for general background notes on an up-to-date American setting:
(click to show/hide)

That's a pretty broad statement and I'm not really sure how accurate it is...

It's not really a secret that rural areas in the U.S. have the lowest regional violent crime/property crime rates and that large metropolitan areas have the highest rates of both (with some serious differences city vs. city and especially neighborhood vs. neighborhood within a given large city--the lowest neighborhood crime rates can be found in extremely wealthy neighborhoods near NYC or DC, for instance).  I think Harry Dresden claimed at one point that this is because supernatural predators prefer high population areas for ease of predation; I sincerely doubt this follows in the real world, but he was pointing to actual statistical trends in his analysis.

Offline blackstaff67

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #248 on: April 02, 2013, 02:59:32 PM »
Given my character's a craftsman by trade and works with power tools (that aren't necessarily powered by electricity), I can probably argue a case for him wearing his enchanted coat as protection in the shop; ditto his wand since it's part of his Earth magic and uses it to enhance his Crafting.

Probably not his enchanted shoes (Grants Aspect: "Faster than you think," +2 to Athletics for two exchanges).

While it isn't a crime to carry a tool, the steel wrecking bar he prefers to carry would probably draw suspicion unless he were part of a home repair crew (but such a useful prop if he were!).
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Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #249 on: April 02, 2013, 03:11:15 PM »
Concerning the state of American gun laws for general background notes on an up-to-date American setting:

Well that makes sense. My regards was to the type of guns available and the accesories for them. Due to that shooting at the kindergarden many states are putting new enforcements on the type of guns you can have. Most handguns are still fine as long as they have not been modifiend and rifles having a certain restricition on clip sizes are the most common that I have come accross. New York state just passed a law that you have a year to get rid of any automatic fire weapons or you will be fined/prisoned.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #250 on: April 02, 2013, 03:56:35 PM »
You are wrong about Shiro and right about Michael. In all likelihood, though, Michael's description is probably just not counting the bonus that Michael will likely receive from True Aim. It ignores it on attack, too, after all. And it doesn't mention the likely bonus to his Athletics defence from Righteousness.

That aside, the way the Power is written is fairly clear. The writeup should take precedence over the examples if there is a contradiction.
It's debatable anyway. It says when it's "swung" with true purpose, which sounds like it's talking to an attack to me. You don't really "swing" the sword when you're defending.

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Dude, the way the Power is written is clear. Very clear. The sword cannot be used except in keeping with its purpose, and when used in keeping with its purpose it gives +1 Weapons.

If you want to adjust Michael's power to fit (your interpretation of) his narrative role, use his Aspects. That's what they're for.

The "restriction" does not actually restrict anything.
Let me put it this way...say the Sword is like a company car. You can use it for whatever you like, so long as it's accepted uses of a car--going places, getting groceries, etc.--and not against company policy or illegal in some manner. But you're only going to get your gas reimbursed when you use the car for explicitly company-backed uses (going to conferences, seeing clients, getting to and from work).

The sword's like that. Michael can use it for things that don't go against God's agenda--killing demons and vampires and such--but he doesn't get the full benefit of the sword's power unless he's particularly on a mission from God.

But in any case, there are situations where Michael would want to use the sword, but can't use that stunt because of the restrictions--while a weapons specialization has no such restriction. Ergo, the canon power has a stricter restriction than this homebrew stunt, which is backward.

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You don't need high Resources or Craftsmanship to own armour. Characters are assumed to have the tools for their job. And even if you start without armour for whatever reason, once you get some you can keep it until something happens to it.
To own armor? No. To own the toughest, sleekest, best available armor? Yes. Having the tools for their job doesn't mean they automatically have Armor:3 that fits under their shirt and is light, breathable, and doesn't restrict their movement.

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But I know that I, personally, would have a much easier time wearing chainmail than carrying a battle axe. One would be uncomfortable and likely to get me weird looks, the other would get me arrested.
Again: Only if you're being foolish and carrying it around as a naked blade. And...really? Have you tried wearing chainmail? Even football pads, made of comparatively lightweight plastic, are not something you want to wear all day.

And, frankly? You can't. If you have any sort of regular job, it's going to have a dress code that does not include chainmail. Inherent in the Dresden world is a need for supernaturally inclined characters--be they supernaturally powered or mundane but knowledgeable--to be discrete and avoid attracting undue attention because of the complications that ensue.

Carrying around a sword out of sight in a dufflebag isn't going to get you stopped unless you give people reason to check your bag. Walking around in full body armor all the time is going to get you all kinds of attention from everybody, including police officers who wonder why someone is walking around in full tactical gear. It really isn't something you can get away with.

Relatively new 'covert' vests can be rated both IIIa (good vs pistols and shotguns) and stab/edged II (which I think is rated for everything other than things like full body charges with a spiked weapon.

In the game, this is somewhere between armor 1 and armor 2, depending on how you want to model things.

A vest with class III or class IV plates (which will protect against rifle fire) can't really be worn covertly.  That is, you can't say, shake hands with someone and have trouble noticing they are wearing armor.  That's somewhere between armor 2 and armor 3 in game terms.

If differentiating between various armors became important in the game:

Armor 1:
a variety of 'home made' protective gear, just as motorcycle leathers, jumberjack and/or various tool resistant clothing (lumberjack chaps, etc).  Not usually concealable.

Or old/reconditioned modern armor.  concealable.

Resources 1 (around 200-300 USD to acquire)

Armor 2:
Actual 'plate' or 'mail' style metal armor.  or 'modern' concealable armors

Resources 2 (around 400-800 USD for modern armor, considerably more for metal armor)

Armor 3:
Technologically reenforced plate or mail armor. 
Non-concealable modern armors (includes helmet, fragment goggles, etc.

edging into resources 3 (An armor 2 vest, and then another 400-800 USD or so for the strike plates, add several hundred more for things like helmet, goggles, knee and elbow pads, etc.
------------

This would mean that most police you'd meet in the US would have armor 2, and most US troops you'd see in Iraq or Afghanistan would have armor 3.
I think you're really lowballing the cost of armor, there. I'd have to check the chart, but offhand I'd either double the Resources ranking needed for each set of armor, or attach aspects to cheap versions of Armor:2 and 3.

Also, there's a difference between keeping something from killing you (which most body armor aims to do) and being able to negate the force. Something that protects against handgun bullets is just keeping it from penetrating, but it can and will hurt like hell and potentially injure you. So I'd say that the standard police vest is probably Armor:1, military/swat body armor is Armor:2, and maybe bomb disposal suits are Armor:3.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #251 on: April 02, 2013, 04:06:44 PM »
Also, there's a difference between keeping something from killing you (which most body armor aims to do) and being able to negate the force. Something that protects against handgun bullets is just keeping it from penetrating, but it can and will hurt like hell and potentially injure you. So I'd say that the standard police vest is probably Armor:1, military/swat body armor is Armor:2, and maybe bomb disposal suits are Armor:3.
So will a decent punch to the same area.
Negating the weapon rating isn't the same thing as 'negating the force'.
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Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #252 on: April 02, 2013, 04:17:35 PM »
So will a decent punch to the same area.
Body armor that protects against bullets and knives isn't the same body armor that'll protect against percussive/blunt force.

Quote
Negating the weapon rating isn't the same thing as 'negating the force'.
It kind of is, though. Weapon:3 and Armor:3 cancel one another out entirely, so it's as if he hadn't used a weapon at all. It completely negates the level of stress or consequence that would've resulted without the armor (potentially turning a Moderate consequence into none), indicating that a bullet that would have done serious damage is now doing no real damage at all.

Having readily-available body armor that can simply shrug off the effects of a shotgun or an automatic rifle just doesn't match with reality--ballistic armor primarily prevents penetration, not the full force of the bullet. Even a bullet proof vest that does its job and doesn't let a single bullet through is going to leave you with, at the least, some pretty nasty bruises.
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Offline Lavecki121

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #253 on: April 02, 2013, 04:17:45 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Death
But in any case, there are situations where Michael would want to use the sword, but can't use that stunt because of the restrictions--while a weapons specialization has no such restriction. Ergo, the canon power has a stricter restriction than this homebrew stunt, which is backward.

And the cannon power is arguably at "-1" with the sword. And you would only get the bonus from the IoP if it is able to be seen and is obvious most of your argument would make the IoP rebate from a sword at -1 because it can be so easily hidden from sight:

Quote from: Mr. Death
Carrying around a sword out of sight in a dufflebag isn't going to get you stopped unless you give people reason to check your bag. Walking around in full body armor all the time is going to get you all kinds of attention from everybody, including police officers who wonder why someone is walking around in full tactical gear. It really isn't something you can get away with.

And if you work in any place that has a metal detector, you arent going to carry your metal sword in. Im not debating that the armor isnt going to have the same restrictions, because it is, but chainmail made of a light modern material is going to stop some weapon 1 attacks (so armor 1) and isnt going to be seen unless you wear it on the outside.

And to take your dufflebag idea, you can easily store chainmail in a dufflebag.

EDIT:
Quote from: Mr. Death
Having readily-available body armor that can simply shrug off the effects of a shotgun or an automatic rifle just doesn't match with reality--ballistic armor primarily prevents penetration, not the full force of the bullet. Even a bullet proof vest that does its job and doesn't let a single bullet through is going to leave you with, at the least, some pretty nasty bruises.

So armor should have 1 less rating than the thing that it is supposed to stop?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 04:19:39 PM by Lavecki121 »

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Making effective PCs that aren't wizards?
« Reply #254 on: April 02, 2013, 04:19:10 PM »
And the cannon power is arguably at "-1" with the sword. And you would only get the bonus from the IoP if it is able to be seen and is obvious most of your argument would make the IoP rebate from a sword at -1 because it can be so easily hidden from sight:
No, the discount also takes into account how easily it's recognizable as an item of power, and how noticeable it is while being used. A smaller discount would be for something you can easily hide all the time. The fact the sword needs something as big as a dufflebag means it's that much harder to conceal--and, well, it's a sword. If some muggle finds an interesting pendant, that's all they'll see it as. If they look in your bag and find a sword, there's going to be trouble.

And to take your dufflebag idea, you can easily store chainmail in a dufflebag.
As I pointed out before, though, you can just whip out the sword and start swinging in a matter of seconds. You can't say the same thing about chainmail. There's a reason that knights had squires and servants to help them get into their armor, remember.

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So armor should have 1 less rating than the thing that it is supposed to stop?
Yes. In fact, the book outright says that armor is going to be behind weapons in strength and availability.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 04:28:20 PM by Mr. Death »
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